What did I miss (Another ick saga)

B

BadRobot

New member
Greets peeps.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Looking to see what I missed in treating this devil spawned disease. Hoping theres some hope before this becomes a classified to sell of my equipment.

lil back ground. I've had Marine tank(s) for about 20 years. Recently upgraded to a 150g tank and added some more stock (of course after the new tank stablized, only brought over a clown tang from the previous 135g, sucker never dies, 17yo and still spunky as heck.

Tank contents, Stars & Stripe Puffer, 3 Sgt Major damsels, Lamrick Angel, Blue Chin Trigger, Harlequin Bass. I think its very little load for that size tank.

200 pounds LR, Skimmer, 65W total UV (2 units, got to help with the Ick, I know its not 100% cure), Carbon, GFO, Bio Pelets and I try to keep reef conditions with Kh,Ca,Mg. weekly 10~15% WC I think the water conditions cant be better, its always crystal clear.

I know that a fallow tank should break the ick cycle, I mean, I know its got to be true its simple physics. Heres the thing....

After trying every snake oil on the market, had to try, I had to resort to Copper,, ugh, I know puffers dont do so well, but I was out of options (trying hyposal now, more to come) I removed a good portion of the rock, and all the sand before I started, I wanted to save all the sand critters. Treated the DT, monitored and added up to 3 times a day do to Cu absobtion. Kept it at 5mg/l for 8 weeks using a not cheap test kit. Everyone survived. yay. Everyone did great for another 6 months, I deemed it an ick victory. 8 months later added the sand and rock back into the DT. A month later the ick was back. This rock/sand tank sat fallow for 10 months. I threw scraps in to feed the critters and kept up mantainance, but no fish, nothing but sand worms and copepods. Can they transfer ick? The 8 extra months wasnt planned, just time constraints prevented me from do it sooner.

Things I considered..
I am 98% its ick, pics I compare with, the descriptions and the cloudy eyes pretty telling. besides the Cu should of killed everything.
I know puffers are susceptible, but again, 8 weeks of Cu treatment....
I know its not possible, but everything points to the fallow tank sand... =\

I'm trying the hyposalinty treatment now without removing the sand or rock. I know I'll loose the critters, and the other risks, but I'm about to hand the fish over to the LFS and sell off the equipment. After all the reading and work and effort to no avail, I dont get it.

Did I miss anything? Ideas?
Sorry for the long post, but I'm at wits end.
 
Ich cant survive just in sand I wouldnt believe since it needs a solid mass to attach to and inverts do not provide this. The time you alloted seems apporiate to say the least. Ive always been told once a fish has ich it always does but again not sure. The other thing I would mention is that if you ran copper in the tank , couldnt the copper leach into the seams of the tank and when you added everything back in could it kill the inverts and such. Including the LR.

My biggest thing is this, dont give up . All of us have gone through this dreaded cycle in our tanks. Its sad to say but it happens. Selling off everything is not the answer. I would honestly set up another tank and remove all the fish and keep the DT completely free of livestock fish wise.

QT the fish in a seperate tank and allow you DT the time it needs to kill off this nasty disease.
 
Copper won't leach into the seams of a tank or soak into equipment.

My guess would be that being you left some rock during treatment, which makes impossible for a consistent copper level, you intern left room for error and some ich at minute numbers remained in the system unnoticed for several months till reaching plague portions. Or you could possibly be dealing with flukes. Are the white specks on the body only?


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Mrscribbled said:
Copper won't leach into the seams of a tank or soak into equipment.

My guess would be that being you left some rock during treatment, which makes impossible for a consistent copper level, you intern left room for error and some ich at minute numbers remained in the system unnoticed for several months till reaching plague portions. Or you could possibly be dealing with flukes. Are the white specks on the body only?


Posted from ReefCentral.com App for Android
Click to expand...

I agree. Copper does not contaminate a tank; this is a myth that just won't die. Ich cysts will live just fine in substrate. If Cu needed to be adjusted so often, there were probably periods when the Cu level was below therapeutic levels. Did you quarantine, and possibly treat, the new fish that were added after the DT was re-established? Cross-contamination possible; like using a net or anything wet in both tanks?
 
Thanks for the help and support. Just such a daming disease my misery needed some company...

I did leave some LR in the tank during treatment to keep bio filter steady, I did check Cu levels in the tank 3 times a days to keep levels up, but there prolly still a crack they slipped through. I was about ready to start using a dosing pump to keep the Cu up. Just seems odd 6 months they were all happy and ick free and a month after adding the sand back in they are reinfected.

The puffer has the ick the worse, shocker, Its on his fins, skin and eyes. Rest of the fish mildly infected. I'm very sure its ick.

I didnt QT the new fish, they all came from the same LFS and all I had from the old tank to the upgrade was the Clown tang and I think he will survive before the cockroaches after a nuclear winter.

I've started the drop for hyposalinty, at 25ppt now with a slow trickel draining the tank and ATO replacing fresh RODI. This will be easier to maintain then the Cu and I'm treating the whole system, sand rock and all. Last shot, all in. Thanks to the handy sticky I know what to watch for and keep ya posted.

Thanks again, needed to make sure I wasnt missing anything.
 
BadRobot said:
I didnt QT the new fish, they all came from the same LFS and all I had from the old tank to the upgrade was the Clown tang and I think he will survive before the cockroaches after a nuclear winter.
Click to expand...

Just so I'm understanding this correctly... after treating the DT with Cu you didn't QT any of the new fish before they went in?
 
no, I didnt need to treat before I added stock. Heres a quick time line

135g tank, 15years running, 1 Clown tang left in it. (long story)
135g springs leak, replaced with 150g current tank
Moved Clowny, LR, and sand over and added above stock
Ick breakout #1
Snake oils Fails
Removed sand and some LR to small 58g tank (fallow treatment)
Cu'd the DT (150g) with all fish, some sand some LR
ick Victory!
Returned sand and rock from the fallow tank
ick breakout#2, present day

Hope that clears it up
 
correct. But all the fish that celebrated the ick victory are icked again. Only thing added was the sand from the fallow tank. Other then that nothing new or changed.
 
BadRobot said:
correct. But all the fish that celebrated the ick victory are icked again. Only thing added was the sand from the fallow tank. Other then that nothing new or changed.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know then. What you did should have worked. But if the copper dropped below therapeutic levels (even for a short while) then the clock would have needed to be restarted. That's the problem dosing copper with rocks present.

If I were you, my next move would be to go the traditional route. QT all the fish in a separate tank/leave the DT fallow this time. Btw, I have zero faith in hypo. If you are still determined to treat the DT, I would look into Chloroquine Phosphate as your alternative.
 
Thanks for the info on Chloroquine Phosphate. I looked into it just now seems interesting. Maybe I will try that if hypo doesnt work. I've already started hypo and geared for it, plus its one of the 3 "proven" methods.

Qt'ing the fish really not an option, I dont have a tank big enuf for 7 fish including a 7" puffer. That why I fallowed the rock and sand seperatly the first time. I know, maybe I can convince the wife into a 200g tank, QT the fish in that, and fallow the 150.. heh

Missing the therapeutic level has to be the only explination. Even with monitoring it 3 days a day. I did antciapate it would be absorbed by the remaining rock. There were a few times I did reset the clock. But the uncanny timing of adding the sand and rock back in with the re-appearance of ick makes me raise an eyebrow.
 
Just feed them well. If they are healthy, they will survive. Fish in the wild get ick, they dont go to the hyposalinity pool, or copperland. They eat well and get better. I have found if you just make sure they are fed well, using garlic and selcon, they are healthy enough to kick the ick on their own. Good luck.
 
Hens4Fish said:
Just feed them well. If they are healthy, they will survive. Fish in the wild get ick, they dont go to the hyposalinity pool, or copperland. They eat well and get better. I have found if you just make sure they are fed well, using garlic and selcon, they are healthy enough to kick the ick on their own. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Just one major difference you are forgetting. Fish in the wild have a whole ocean to dilute the parasite. They instinctively swim away from the place that's infested. In captivity, they have no where to go and it can overwhelm them no matter how healthy they are. You just haven't had a bad strain yet or had a power outage or something to stress out your fish. Eventually you'll run out of luck and it will wipe out your tank.
 
Mellow, I disagree though. In the wild, fish can not tell where an "infested" place might be? They get ick, and other parasites just like in tanks. The major difference in captivity is really just the fact that the water is not clean. So you are right about dilution, but its not the parasite thats diluted, its the clean water that keeps them healty. It is similar to us getting a virus. If we get the flu virus, if we are young, healthy, eating well, and living in a clean environment, the flu comes and goes with nothing more than aggitation. If we are old, frail, living in dirty conditions, or otherwise immunocompromised, we need some other kind of intervetion to get better, like medications.
You are also right that stress can trigger ick outbreaks, just as stress can trigger us to get a cold. But if the fish are healthy, they will get over the ick. Proper feeding, and using garlic and selcon to give vitamins and boost appetites will take care of it much better than all the medications and hyposalinity issues. I have read all too often about people who took all their fish out, treated with meds, did hyposalinity for several months, put the fish back into the tank, and they get ick again. The stress triggers it. If you relax and feed well, keep the tank clean, they will kick it.
Also, I have been in this hobby for 10 years, and have experienced many things, such as power outages, and bad strains. I have tried every med out there, and every way to treat, and the best and most successful method(not to mention the least stressful) has been to do what I said. Just trying to share my experience.
 
Hens4Fish said:
Mellow, I disagree though. In the wild, fish can not tell where an "infested" place might be? They get ick, and other parasites just like in tanks. The major difference in captivity is really just the fact that the water is not clean. So you are right about dilution, but its not the parasite thats diluted, its the clean water that keeps them healty. It is similar to us getting a virus. If we get the flu virus, if we are young, healthy, eating well, and living in a clean environment, the flu comes and goes with nothing more than aggitation. If we are old, frail, living in dirty conditions, or otherwise immunocompromised, we need some other kind of intervetion to get better, like medications.
You are also right that stress can trigger ick outbreaks, just as stress can trigger us to get a cold. But if the fish are healthy, they will get over the ick. Proper feeding, and using garlic and selcon to give vitamins and boost appetites will take care of it much better than all the medications and hyposalinity issues. I have read all too often about people who took all their fish out, treated with meds, did hyposalinity for several months, put the fish back into the tank, and they get ick again. The stress triggers it. If you relax and feed well, keep the tank clean, they will kick it.
Also, I have been in this hobby for 10 years, and have experienced many things, such as power outages, and bad strains. I have tried every med out there, and every way to treat, and the best and most successful method(not to mention the least stressful) has been to do what I said. Just trying to share my experience.
Click to expand...

Just speculation on my part but I think if animals aren't happy somewhere due to whatever reason they will migrate to another area. In our tanks they sleep under the same rock every night and couldn't chose to move if ich was infested in that area. Some experienced reefers on this site with excellent water quality have had a bad case of ich wipe out their fish, right? I appreciate that you have ten years experience and have chosen not to try to keep ich out of your tank and it's worked well for you. We are all trying to help the OP in our own way but everyone has to find what they are comfortable with. My fish got ich shortly after I got my first tank and I lost one fish and almost lost another and didn't want it to happen again. I treated them and all new fish since and have been happy going this route. I have read the threads where people say they did everything right but it came back, and I feel for them and can't say for sure that won't happen to me. This particular post had someone using copper with rock in the tank, going against the recommended treatment method of no sand/rock. And many times we do find a reason why they didn't get rid of ich. But think of how many people on here are successful at keeping ich out of their tanks. Because from what I've read, ich does kill in many instances, no matter how healthy their fish were and how high their water quality is. To me its not worth the risk because I've lost fish to ich. But if you've never had a deadly strain then maybe it doesn't seem worth the trouble. And honestly, if my fish did get ich now I would be going with your method because there's no way I'm going to pull out 9 fish for treatment. Sorry I'm rambling now :) BTW, nice to talk to someone from Oshkosh - I grew up in Grafton WI and frequently drove through Oshkosh on my way to visit family in Wausau.
 
BadRobot said:
Just seems odd 6 months they were all happy and ick free and a month after adding the sand back in they are reinfected.
Click to expand...

6-months is actually the time-frame given for natural immunity to wear off.

Say the copper levels were not consistent enough to eradicate the parasite from the tank, they still would have reduced the population enough for the fish's immune system to kick in and finish the job - or so you thought.

Problem is the parasites may have been able to hide-out in the substrate. It's also possible the fish were still infected, but their immune system was keeping it in check so it went on, unnoticed.

Fast-forward 6-months... natural immunity wears off and the environment is drastically changed (adding the sand and rock) which is a stress trigger. Immune systems fail and infection is now again full blown and visible.

Check out this article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-1...ture/index.php

Just my theory, I've done a LOT of reading on this parasite :(
 
Oh, and I've had success treating with Quinine Sulfate in a hospital tank - for what it's worth. With sensitive fish as well... leopard wrasse, angelfish, spotted mandarin, two clownfish, and a tang. No casualties.
 
Mellow, I think we should start our own thread, everyone is talking around us...hahaha. Yeah, it seems like everyone has their own way of doing things, and if it works, great. I just gave up being so worried about everything that might go wrong with a tank. Maybe my way is not for everyone, but I sure enjoy the tank more now. I look at it like the tang argument. Some people say that you cant have a tang live long in a small tank, and some people can keep a 5" powder blue tang in a 55 gallon with just a canister filter without aggression for 5-10 years. Who knows who is right. I just recently got a sulfer reactor for my nitrates and had half the people tell me they are a waste, and the other half say they are the most critical item to have on the tank. I guess in our own minds we are each very knowledgable in this hobby, and we want to push people to follow our lead if it worked for us. To each his own and happy reefing.
As far as the Oshkosh topic, do you miss the weather here? Yesterday was the first day of spring and it was 6 below in the morning....ouch.
 
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