What would you do- Transfer back early or wait?
- Thread starter kenith
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wooden_reefer
New member
Cycling the QT well and using hypo or copper is the slower but easier and less work intensive method than TT. Basically the former should last at least 8 weeks.
When you leave behind the issue of ultimate effectiveness and the issue of increased chance of bacterial infection, such is the feature of each method.
The cycle QT method also get rid of most ick quickly. There is reason to believe that it is faster in symtom relief than TT, which uses no drug. Some state that copper has no effective on ich already on fish, but I think this is not true.
Since you have to take the vacation, the only choice is between leaving fish in QT that is not cycled (even with the doubtfully half cycled rock) and returning them to DT earlier than ideal.
From what I gather, I believe returning them to the DT in less time (7 weeks) then most desirable is better than leaving them in uncycled QT. The chance of ammonia harm is greater than the risk of ick.
As I have said, even if ick returns, there is also a very good chance that ich infestation will not yet be serious enough to kill your fish within two weeks of the fish in DT.
You should plan to have to treat your fish at once when you come back. For this reason, you should start a cycle now in a separate container.
Read the thread "another lesson learned" closeby. There, I outlined the procedure to start a cycle with good circulation, aeration, warmth, bacteria seed, and pulses of ammonia.
The pulses of ammonia can be shrimp blended into milk, or at least very finely chopped. Use a small shrimp for each 20 gals of water. Forget about removing any shrimp, let what you put in decay entirely. (use a fraction of a small shrimp for less than 20 gals of water) . Add one pulse at day 1, and every five days twice. Three pulses for the cycle. If you are leaving soon, double pulse on the day you leave.
If ich had broken out when you return, you can use TT and in one to two more weeks the cycle will be advanced to the point that the medium can be used in QT, after rinsing with clean salt water of the same salinity.
If ich broken out later when the cycle is complete, you can choice to give up on the TT method and use the slower method to eradicate ich.
When you leave behind the issue of ultimate effectiveness and the issue of increased chance of bacterial infection, such is the feature of each method.
The cycle QT method also get rid of most ick quickly. There is reason to believe that it is faster in symtom relief than TT, which uses no drug. Some state that copper has no effective on ich already on fish, but I think this is not true.
Since you have to take the vacation, the only choice is between leaving fish in QT that is not cycled (even with the doubtfully half cycled rock) and returning them to DT earlier than ideal.
From what I gather, I believe returning them to the DT in less time (7 weeks) then most desirable is better than leaving them in uncycled QT. The chance of ammonia harm is greater than the risk of ick.
As I have said, even if ick returns, there is also a very good chance that ich infestation will not yet be serious enough to kill your fish within two weeks of the fish in DT.
You should plan to have to treat your fish at once when you come back. For this reason, you should start a cycle now in a separate container.
Read the thread "another lesson learned" closeby. There, I outlined the procedure to start a cycle with good circulation, aeration, warmth, bacteria seed, and pulses of ammonia.
The pulses of ammonia can be shrimp blended into milk, or at least very finely chopped. Use a small shrimp for each 20 gals of water. Forget about removing any shrimp, let what you put in decay entirely. (use a fraction of a small shrimp for less than 20 gals of water) . Add one pulse at day 1, and every five days twice. Three pulses for the cycle. If you are leaving soon, double pulse on the day you leave.
If ich had broken out when you return, you can use TT and in one to two more weeks the cycle will be advanced to the point that the medium can be used in QT, after rinsing with clean salt water of the same salinity.
If ich broken out later when the cycle is complete, you can choice to give up on the TT method and use the slower method to eradicate ich.
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Mrscribbled
Team RC
I know for a fact bio spira works, I've used it countless times setting up new display and qt tanks. It would be easy for yiu to try it .
If you want to put it to the test for yourself take a container of some sort that you can hang a filter on or place a large sponge filter in. using ocean level salt and a temp of 83 degrees. Add straight ammonia choride till 3ppm is reached. typically 2 to 3 days this will be at zero. After that dose more chloride every 2 days simulating the bio load of the fish. You'll have an established filter ready for all your fish by vacation time. This along with minimum feeding your problems will be less stressfull. Make sure the bio spira is less than 6 months old. It is indeed live natural nitrafying bacteria. Products like stability and microbacter 7 are a different bacteria that do not colonize long term. Just last week I had more fish than expected arrive so I set up a sterile 20 gallon, new sponge filter, added a 3 inch blueface angle and a bottle of bio spira. Ammonia peaked at .2ppm for 12 hours, salifert kit. Nitrites were detectable at 18 hours. By day 5 nitrates were at 10ppm. Ammonia and nitrites 0.
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If you want to put it to the test for yourself take a container of some sort that you can hang a filter on or place a large sponge filter in. using ocean level salt and a temp of 83 degrees. Add straight ammonia choride till 3ppm is reached. typically 2 to 3 days this will be at zero. After that dose more chloride every 2 days simulating the bio load of the fish. You'll have an established filter ready for all your fish by vacation time. This along with minimum feeding your problems will be less stressfull. Make sure the bio spira is less than 6 months old. It is indeed live natural nitrafying bacteria. Products like stability and microbacter 7 are a different bacteria that do not colonize long term. Just last week I had more fish than expected arrive so I set up a sterile 20 gallon, new sponge filter, added a 3 inch blueface angle and a bottle of bio spira. Ammonia peaked at .2ppm for 12 hours, salifert kit. Nitrites were detectable at 18 hours. By day 5 nitrates were at 10ppm. Ammonia and nitrites 0.
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Interesting; I haven't thought of bio spira in years. When you do this for a QT, do your pour the bio spira into the tank or directly over the media (i.e. sponge) you intend to use to harbor the bacteria?
How can one make sure of this? Do they print their dates on the bottle?
Mrscribbled
Team RC
yes dates are printed. Going straight through Dr. Tims website is best. He guarantees the product.
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SloppyWhenWet
New member
How do you cycle water properly? Time period?
Mrscribbled
Team RC
Water does not cycle.SloppyWhenWet said:
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wooden_reefer
New member
You don't have to have bioballs or Dr Tim.
Cycling is basically an extremely easy thing. Very easy and very cheap.
Source of bacteria, source of ammonia, and type of suitable medium for bacteria growth are all plentiful and very cheap.
There should not be any commercial possibility in cycling and nitrification biological filtration. As long as the earth spins bacteria will grow under very easily achieved conditions.
Nitrification is a massive process globally. Any time any lives end and decay, and live on by excretion, there will be nitrification of some sort, in soil or aquatic substrates of all kinds.
wooden_reefer
New member
It is not the water that is cycled; it is NOT even a tank that is cycled, even this is spoken frequently.
it is the medium onto which bacteria live that is cycled. It is best to think this way.
In the DT, the idea of cycling the tank and cycling the medium is often in common. For the QT, it is best to always think of cycling the medium, not cycling the QT tank.
wooden_reefer
New member
7 week fallow period is not so short that the chance that all ich is gone is low; in fact, I believe it is not low, just not high enough as usual recomendation.
I believe what you need is a contigency plan, so you cycle in advance.
Even if I don't go on vacation and went 12 weeks fallow, it is still best to have a contigency plan for six months after the last introduction of any livestock of uncertain ich status.
I believe what you need is a contigency plan, so you cycle in advance.
Even if I don't go on vacation and went 12 weeks fallow, it is still best to have a contigency plan for six months after the last introduction of any livestock of uncertain ich status.
I would gamble and put the fish back into your DT.
I realize that you have a very beautiful and EXPENSIVE collection of fish but I think risking them for 2 weeks in a 29 gallon uncycled quarantine tank at the hands of an inexperienced person is riskier than putting them back in the DT. Either option is bad but I think they'll be better in the DT. You have let it run fallow for 7 weeks which is good. Just be prepared that you might have to treat them again when you get back.
Keeping them in cramped quarters where their aggresiveness will increase while the water quality will decrease is riskier, in my opinion, than putting back in your DT.
I realize that you have a very beautiful and EXPENSIVE collection of fish but I think risking them for 2 weeks in a 29 gallon uncycled quarantine tank at the hands of an inexperienced person is riskier than putting them back in the DT. Either option is bad but I think they'll be better in the DT. You have let it run fallow for 7 weeks which is good. Just be prepared that you might have to treat them again when you get back.
Keeping them in cramped quarters where their aggresiveness will increase while the water quality will decrease is riskier, in my opinion, than putting back in your DT.
I have been dosing some of zeovit bacteria that was in my fridge to try and boost/quicken the cycle. For now, I am going to monitor how that live rock is doing cycle wise.
Another option is to setup a fish only tank plumbed into the dt's sump, so that if there's ich when I get back, it will be very easy to remove the fish in qt again. I wonder if I plumb the return through a uv sterilizer first, will it eradicate any possibility of ich getting into the temp holding tank.
wooden_reefer
New member
1. UV sized for bacteria is not effective against ich.
2. The flow thru UV has to be slow, slower than most uninitiated would likely think. I think about 5-8 gph per watt is about right. So either a bypass or a separate dedicated small pump is needed.
The UV is very useful in disease control of fish in general.
So a likely option to buy me time would be a uv serilizer of the appropriate size and flow would eradicate any possible chance of ich going into the temp setup? The plan is to run a tank right by sump with a seperate pump dedicated for that tank, but with a uv serilizer or two run that flows into the temp tank, which then drains back into the sump. This idea would allow me to have the ammonia/nitrite issues taken care of and if the chance the ich is still present and got around the sterilizers, I would be able to get the fish out quickly.
wooden_reefer
New member
UV of ordinary size is unlikely to be effective against ich. I have used 15 watt UV in 20 gal QT and had no effect on ich.
Ich is not the only concern in disease control. The UV quite significantly reduces the incidents and seriousness of external bacterial infection, fin rot body rot etc. Hope it won't happen to you this time.
Bacterial infection per se is serious, but treatment against bacterial infection often requires the use of antibiotics that harm nitrificatiion bacteria. This throws a monkey wrench into the set up of very well cycled medium for QT to eradicate ich. But fortunately many antibiotics don't completely wipeout nitrification bacteria, and also the use of antibiotics is for only a few days, not a few weeks, so WC is more bearable and less expensive than to eradicate ich without nitrification. This is also why the nitrification bacteria in a QT is better removable and put back easily. why LR is not good for QT.
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triggreef
New member
I like this option C... Like u said, worst case they get ich, at least you can get them out w/o breaking down your tank again. Just use a small siphon to feed their tank & create an overflow to the sump. Done. You dont need a ton of flow, just enough to keep the water changing.
Thanks all for your help. I'm happy to report that I put the qt'd fishes in after the 9 week fallow period and they are happy and ICH FREE! My helpers were given detailed instructions how to care for the fishes while I was away.
I made up three bins of premixed salt water heated to proper temperature and every third day, they did the water changes. Fed and primed daily, all worked out great! :bounce3:
I made up three bins of premixed salt water heated to proper temperature and every third day, they did the water changes. Fed and primed daily, all worked out great! :bounce3:
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