When is a morph a "new" zoa type?

[jefathome]

I totally understand that light affects how Zoas look. They fade, some colors disappear and others becore more prominent, overall pop can decline or they can brown up.

What about when a single polyp in a colony appears that has a totally new color to it and all of the surounding heads remain the exact same?

For example if you had an Eagle Eye and in one polyp the orange part was blue, or if in a colony of some brown Zoa you got one that had a PE style mouth... Then you cut it out and propogaged this single polyp and all of the subsequent polyps you raised retained that trait. Would that qualify?

Or does this comes down to the whole "named" thing and all the benefits and disadvantages it brings? Is a Zoa more desireable just because Zoaid recognizes it?

What are your thoughts?

 

[flyyyguy]

Answer to the title of this thread is ..........never

marketing and upselling aside, it can be very difficult and takes lots of experience with different systems and different polyps to truly understand what can, and cannot be environmentally morphed.

Giving a new and unique name for the same polyp that just looks different in any given system undermines the name game for the people who do use the names solely for identification purposes.

There will always be multiple names for the same polyps as 1. many people do not understand what can and cannnot be environemtnally morphed 2. wild corals are collected, chopped up, named and sold for high end aquacultured prices before anyone has any idea what it will truly end up looking like after being in captivity for a while, and 3. It isnt all that easy to tell sometimes even if you do think you know what you are looking at.

I do not like the chop shop hacks. I have no problem paying for soemthing that I want, but want to educate everyone possibkle that paying high end aquacultured prices,for recently wild caughts is ripping yourself off. If you are going to pay a premium, get what you pay for and support the reputable farmers and hobbyists who actually grow the stuff and will give you a much better product for your hard earned money

The people who do know what they are looking at for the most part, and do think the names help us distinguish one unique polyp from another, need to just do thier best to not give new and unique names for morphs of the same old polyp, or very similar polyp in an effort to keep things straight for everyone.

when it comes down to it, it is just a name, and a general guide, although IMO as a collector, the names do certainly help, even if there ends up being several names for the same, or very similar polyp.

 

[joshnola]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15115572#post15115572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flyyyguy
Answer to the title of this thread is ..........never

marketing and upselling aside, it can be very difficult and takes lots of experience with different systems and different polyps to truly understand what can, and cannot be environmentally morphed.

Giving a new and unique name for the same polyp that just looks different in any given system undermines the name game for the people who do use the names solely for identification purposes.

There will always be multiple names for the same polyps as 1. many people do not understand what can and cannnot be environemtnally morphed 2. wild corals are collected, chopped up, named and sold for high end aquacultured prices before anyone has any idea what it will truly end up looking like after being in captivity for a while, and 3. It isnt all that easy to tell sometimes even if you do think you know what you are looking at.

I do not like the chop shop hacks. I have no problem paying for soemthing that I want, but want to educate everyone possibkle that paying high end aquacultured prices,for recently wild caughts is ripping yourself off. If you are going to pay a premium, get what you pay for and support the reputable farmers and hobbyists who actually grow the stuff and will give you a much better product for your hard earned money

The people who do know what they are looking at for the most part, and do think the names help us distinguish one unique polyp from another, need to just do thier best to not give new and unique names for morphs of the same old polyp, or very similar polyp in an effort to keep things straight for everyone.

when it comes down to it, it is just a name, and a general guide, although IMO as a collector, the names do certainly help, even if there ends up being several names for the same, or very similar polyp.

Makes sense to me!

 

[jefathome]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15115572#post15115572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flyyyguy
Answer to the title of this thread is ..........never

it can be very difficult and takes lots of experience with different systems and different polyps to truly understand what can, and cannot be environmentally morphed.

Giving a new and unique name for the same polyp that just looks different in any given system undermines the name game for the people who do use the names solely for identification purposes.

Yes, I agree that the environmentally morphed polyps should not have a new name because if you give one to someone else, they could/will change back to the original.

What I'm talking about is a unique polyp that retains its traits from tank to tank. What about those?

 

[flyyyguy]

no such thing ime

any given polyp has certain genetic characteristics and certain things that can and cannot be environmentally morphed.

That isnt to say that it may look the same n one tank vs the other, or a little different n one tank vs the other, but we certainly do not have the power no matter how well, or how poorly we take care fo them to change these things at a genetic level

 

[jefathome]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15119226#post15119226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flyyyguy
no such thing ime

any given polyp has certain genetic characteristics and certain things that can and cannot be environmentally morphed.

That isnt to say that it may look the same n one tank vs the other, or a little different n one tank vs the other, but we certainly do not have the power no matter how well, or how poorly we take care fo them to change these things at a genetic level

I disagree here... Genetically they may be the same, but the way the genes are expressed can change.

Look at identical twins for example. One can have curly hair while the other has straight. There is also always a chance that there was genetic mutation during the asexual reproduction that caused the variation on color. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but it could.

Back to gene expression, lets say that I have a polyp that develops a picture of david hasselhof, and every supsequent head has the same pic of that drunk looser on it. It may be geneticly the same as some other non hasslepaly, but if the expression of these genes remains in all subsequent prodginy regardless of tank, lighting, temp... then morphologicly it is different.

 

[jefathome]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15119226#post15119226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flyyyguy
no such thing ime

any given polyp has certain genetic characteristics and certain things that can and cannot be environmentally morphed.

That isnt to say that it may look the same n one tank vs the other, or a little different n one tank vs the other, but we certainly do not have the power no matter how well, or how poorly we take care fo them to change these things at a genetic level

Actually, re-reading this I DO agree with you in part.

"Certain things can and cannot be environmentally morphed" - I agree. So if this experssion (color) remains despite having samples in totally different environments, then it is not an "environment" morph. It is either a change in genes or gene expression. Most likely the expression though, as genetic changes are much more rare and I would not presume to have a Darwin tank.

Heck, there are some that would say that Zoa evolution is the work of the devil :smokin:

I didn't say that it was a new species though. Only that it could be a new "morph" since it is a new color that can be duplicated in its offspring and remains regardless of tank conditions.

 

[Superstretch18]

I want some David Hasselhoff zoas!

IMO names should just be used as a descriptor of a particular species/color pattern/growth pattern. If you "develop" a different morph that isn't just a variation caused by specific tank conditions (i.e., yellow vs. orange, change in PE, etc.), you should be able to name it.

I guess my question would be has that ever happened to anyone before? I.e. you bought blue tubs and the morphed into something completely different (say a green ring or something). My feeling is that most new color morphs are discovered in the wild that reveal more color under tank conditions, rather than actually changing an existing morph.

 

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15125890#post15125890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jefathome

Heck, there are some that would say that Zoa evolution is the work of the devil :smokin:

I didn't say that it was a new species though. Only that it could be a new "morph" since it is a new color that can be duplicated in its offspring and remains regardless of tank conditions.

I have never yet experienced one change in such a way that I believe couldnt be reversed environmental conditions willing, nor have I ever experienced one morph so far out that an experienced eye couldnt see the connection

JMO of course....but much more importantly..........and a little known fact....

If you take a picture of any famous named polyp, and then invert the image with photoshop, evil satanic messages will be automaticially downloaded to all who view its brains

 

[jefathome]

Obviously I am asking this because I had it happen to me, so I guess I'll jsut spill the beans. Pics coming (I hope).

I had a big colony of Green-bay Packers (peach mouth, green body, yellow skirt) that grew into a colony of Eagle Eyes. At the border where the two met I got some strange polyps that had the yellowish peach center, yellow skirt, but all of the green was gone and in its place was a deep blue/purple. I left it for a bit and eventually I had 3-4 polyps of this new purple/yellow polyp.

I have now isolated them onto their own frag plug and the new ones that are growing still have the purple, not the green... yet all of the regular GBP's that I have are still nice and bright with regular GREEN bodies.

They started in my display and continue on my 4x2 frag tank.

 

[GreatReefs]

perhaps a stray polyp or a baby polyp of these purple ones were there without you knowing and grew up. Although I've had polyps change color on me but not that drastically.