where to buy equipment?

[kmitch]

I think you mean that the PPO2 is 1.4 in the 130 ft range... But I get your drift

Yeah... typing faster than thinking...

Hm. Didn't it worry you to not know exactly what you were breathing?

No I analyzed the gases and programmed them into the unit, but since it wasn't a straight mix of 15/35 or 30% I don't remember what it was... some days it was 16%, other days 18%.... all became a blur haha!

Yep - very bulky. The rebreather was probably a really good idea. That said, you do realize that no matter whether it's a single AL40 or four AL80's, they still weigh nothing in the water, right? Okay, they're a couple of pounds negative full and a couple of pounds positive empty, but effectively, they weigh nothing. I've seen girls smaller than you handle a lot more. Too cool to find a female "technical" diver - I can count on one hand how many I know. Nice to see it in such a male-dominated "sport."

Yeah they all weigh nothing ONCE you are in the water! But on those cheap cozumel boats, thats alot of junk to sling, and it gets in the way. I have had to shorten and adjust things already just so I can reach over the lungs and one bailout 40, when I get an 80 clipped in there I have a hard time reaching those thigh pockets... 40s are more practical for me. Recently started to sidemount them to help get those tanks under my armpit once I am in the water, but on the surface it doesn't matter. Drysuit and scooter only compound the problem! I know two other women tech divers, one is married to the owner of the shop, the other is another instructor but she does OC only.

I figured thats what you meant by standard gasses, I just don't talk to enough technical divers in a day who would call those 'standard mixes'... most of our diving is shallow enough that air or nitrox prevails for cost, but on the rare day we do break 200fsw we get a 'non-standard' mix of 15/35... only non-standard in that its not what we're used to getting to treat ourselves to! Then again, on a rebreather (which the majority of our staff dive) we'll use other gasses than an OC person might.

Never dove Murray, dove Jocasse alot while I worked in Atlanta.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Great picture!

Okay, I'm sorry I doubted. As someone who dives pretty much every day, I've become quite the skeptic, especially when it's online and there's an unusual story that seems really out there... Like a diver "nearly killed" by a freeflow from a second stage that basically became inoperative because the color of it's faceplate had been changed.

Tell me more about the rebreather that you selected. My pick was an RB80 from Halcyon - a semi-closed system rather than a full CCR for it's reliability and predictability. CCR's obviously hold their theoretical advantages, and of course, I've always got an eye out for them... It's just that the electronics and comparatively complex systems in saltwater REALLY worry me.

Ever had a problem with your system? I haven't yet had the chance to try Dive Rite's newest CCR...

 

[kmitch]

Okay, I'm sorry I doubted. As someone who dives pretty much every day, I've become quite the skeptic, especially when it's online and there's an unusual story that seems really out there... Like a diver "nearly killed" by a freeflow from a second stage that basically became inoperative because the color of it's faceplate had been changed.

Understood, believe me I am an equal skeptic towards most of the junk I hear online. But you'll also understand why I am so anti-leisurepro, the things they'll do to make a buck scare me. I've go not issue with the legit scuba.com's of the world, but LP and I have issues.... haha. I'm sure you've got some equally bizarre knee smackers from commercial diving!

Tell me more about the rebreather that you selected. My pick was an RB80 from Halcyon - a semi-closed system rather than a full CCR for it's reliability and predictability. CCR's obviously hold their theoretical advantages, and of course, I've always got an eye out for them... It's just that the electronics and comparatively complex systems in saltwater REALLY worry me.

I was between the Evo and O2ptima at the end of the day. I wanted a system that didn't depend on me to push a button for survival (like the KISS) which put me in the eCCR category. Evo electronics are possibly better as they've got the temp stick, and nice electronics package in one handset, but I liked the redundancy of two handsets, the availability of parts, and ease of packing a scubber that came with the O2ptima. I've had handset failure several times, but it is never a big deal. Worst case: handset controlling the solenoid fails, now you've (potentially) lost your deco and maintaining PO2 is up to the diver. Every time it has failed I've caught it within 20 seconds, if you fly at minimum loop you'll notice 1. when you stop hearing the solenoid click and 2. you'll bottom out the lungs when O2 isn't being injected regularly. At that point my eCCR becomes a mCCR, I manually add O2 to the loop every min or so to maintain setpoint.

The thing about a rebreather is that, while it has more parts to fail, it also has more 'backups' in the event of a failure.... scrubber breakthru? no prob, fly it semi closed. Run out of O2? Plug in offboard gas. Unlike OC where one major failure can ruin the day, CCR has enough 'backup modes' that you're likely to survive any failures, provided you stay one step ahead of the unit. I always follow the philosophy that it's trying to kill me, so if I stay smarter than it, I'll live. The day I get lazy and cut a corner diving the rebreather is the day I'll sell it.

How do you like the Halcyon one? I've seen it at DEMA, but its got a bigger scrubber than I could reasonably ever use. But halcyon is actually our flagship brand at our shop...

Some other pics from Cozumel....

(The lone OC guy... haha)

One more of me:

Shop owner and his wife who also dive O2ptimas:

 

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15587619#post15587619 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmitch
I'm sure you've got some equally bizarre knee smackers from commercial diving!

Actually, I've got some equally bizarre knee smackers from brick-n-mortar dive shops. You don't want to know - more often than not, I've walked out, completely disgusted. At least online, shop personnel don't generally have much opportunity to make asses of themselves.

halcyon is actually our flagship brand at our shop...

You're kidding. I actually know Jarrod and the guys fairly well. Do you teach GUE principles, too, or just carry the brand? Odd to see that you aren't diving an RB80 if you carry them in your store - Kinda like the owner of a Ford/Lincoln dealership driving a Cadillac for his personal car. Or maybe you're also a Dive Rite dealer?

Don't ask me how I like the RB80... Dive one for yourself. You're a dealer... Certainly you'd be able to get your hands on one without a problem!

Compared to the photos of you guys in that Dive Rite setup, I am amazed at how incredibly simple and reliable the RB80 is. I don't know why anyone would want to make things more complicated.

The scrubber and counterlung combined is about the size of a single AL80... Not large at all... Yet, a lot of 'sorb means lots of bottom time, little chance of CO2 buildup, ease of breathing, and of course, an overall safety factor. Sitting in it's canister, it's also incredibly streamlined, so your comments on the size of the scrubber leave me scratching my head a little.

Of course, on an RB80, nothing's covered up like it is on so many other rebreathers... So everything's immediately accessible on the dive, immediately servicable in the field, and like I said, streamlined and as entanglement-hazard free as possible. Simplicity is the key.

As a dealer, I can't believe that the only place you've ever seen one is at DEMA. You should dive one. I'm sure that Jarrod would be thrilled to demo one for you.

Some other pics from Cozumel....

...Not that I don't want to see dive pictures, but so far as I know, you came out of mommy's tummy wearing a black mask and with rubber hoses coming from your mouth. How 'bout a topside picture of you so that we all know who we're talking to?

It's interesting that everyone in your pictures seems to be super-equipped with the latest Dive Rite fully-electronic CCR, but not one person is horizontal in the water column.

...And I think I see a Deathspiration. Don't you guys know better?

You can make fun of the single OC guy all you want, but he's got the simplest rig that's wholly appropriate for the kind of diving you're doing. He's even diving a long hose and is wearing doubled instruments on the correct wrist... Apparently showing off how to shoot a lift bag (semiclosed - the right one) with a spool (instead of a reel). He must have lost his black mask, though, and bummed the clear one from the divemaster on the boat.

 

[kmitch]

You're kidding. I actually know Jarrod and the guys fairly well. Do you teach GUE principles, too, or just carry the brand? Odd to see that you aren't diving an RB80 if you carry them in your store - Kinda like the owner of a Ford/Lincoln dealership driving a Cadillac for his personal car. Or maybe you're also a Dive Rite dealer?

Talked to Jarrod, never met him. Ken is our H rep. Shop is listed as one of those top 10 dealers We don't teach GUE stuff, we've all adapted the DIR philosophy, but we're not the kind of shop that is DIR or bust. None of us believe that if you don't do XYZ or do it differently than XYZ that you'll die..... but we believe that it is the best system out there. We teach IANTD and TDI as our tech training. Halcyon's rebranding as gear for everyone, not just DIR guys, has been effective so we're getting more and more recreational divers into backplate systems than ever before. We actually don't sell any jacket BCs, and only have one BC in the shop that isn't a modular backplate system, although it is back inflation.

Also a Dive Rite, OMS, etc dealer, all the big ones you'd expect for tech diving. Dive Rite rebreather is smaller, travels easier, less expensive, and no scrubber to pack... Most of us have a mish-mash of those brands represented in our gear, although Halcyon is out big one.

Compared to the photos of you guys in that Dive Rite setup, I am amazed at how incredibly simple and reliable the RB80 is. I don't know why anyone would want to make things more complicated.

RB80 has back mounted lungs right? If so thats where the bulk is for the O2ptima, OTS lungs ease WOB but does add some bulk to it. Not bad really, and its nice having everything 'up front' where I can see it.

...Not that I don't want to see dive pictures, but so far as I know, you came out of mommy's tummy wearing a black mask and with rubber hoses coming from your mouth. How 'bout a topside picture of you so that we all know who we're talking to?

Huh? Theres a few of me in funny positions because I am taking pictures... We had some recreational guys on the boat too... some scary ones at that!

Thats Oliver, he lives in Cozumel and was our 'guide' for the week. Not one of our shop guys. The OC guy was his student.

He's was a great diver. Mark was his name. Big steel tanks so he was getting bottom times similar to mine, although not with the same amount of time at depth... he had alot more deco.

When I don't have the rebreather on its long hose or bust, even when I pull out my PADI card and start teaching OW, I do it in a backplate and long hose. Go ahead, give me slack about the PADI card

My OC setup.... Yoke because I am in Bonaire and no DIN tanks handy, I'm writing a note to my OW student who was having trouble equalizing....

 

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15589535#post15589535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmitch
Talked to Jarrod, never met him. Ken is our H rep.

Yeah, I've never met Ken. Jarrod's a great guy.

Shop is listed as one of those top 10 dealers

Too cool! Boy, I must have sounded like an idiot above...

Dive Rite rebreather is smaller, travels easier, less expensive, and no scrubber to pack... Most of us have a mish-mash of those brands represented in our gear, although Halcyon is out big one.

Yeah, I haven't seen it in person, but I'd really like to. I've got a big job coming up in North Carolina, so maybe I should stop in and check it out. What are the new O2ptimas retailing for?

RB80 has back mounted lungs right? If so thats where the bulk is for the O2ptima, OTS lungs ease WOB but does add some bulk to it. Not bad really, and its nice having everything 'up front' where I can see it.

Yeah... On an RB80, the counter and scrubber are in a cylindrical unit that's back-mounted like an AL80, flanked usually by a pair of AL40s, although you can use larger tanks for your O2 and D if you want.

Very interesting that the O2ptima has it's counter up front - that seems to me like it'd add a lot of bulk or at least feel like a lot of bulk... Is that what the apparent Mae West vest is in your photos? Is that the counterlung? Weird... Never seen anything like that before. It's not in the way? I would think that it wouldn't work very well for streamlining, although I can see your point about everything being up front so you can see what's going on.

He's was a great diver. Mark was his name. Big steel tanks so he was getting bottom times similar to mine, although not with the same amount of time at depth... he had alot more deco.

Hunh?

What - you were diving 'mix and he was diving air? Why were your deco times shorter? I mean, that shouldn't be a function of the rebreather...

Go ahead, give me slack about the PADI card

Heh... It's "How the world learns to dive," right? I have too many of my own to give you flack about it.

My OC setup.... Yoke because I am in Bonaire and no DIN tanks handy, I'm writing a note to my OW student who was having trouble equalizing....

...What I WILL give you flack about is that photo - you're so vertical you're actually a little backwards...

Of course, I feel like I SHOULD give you flack because I can plainly see that you seem to know exactly what you're doing... If I didn't respect your skill set, then I wouldn't give you flack...

Great to be able to place a name with the face - I think I've seen you before on The Deco Stop or something. You know, women are a rare thing at this level of diving, so they tend to stick in my mind.

You remind me a lot of my girl Kym - http://www.DeepSouthDivers.org/kym . Like you, she's slim and athletic, attractive and capable and skilled. Both you and her remind me of a friend of mine, Kimber, who suffered a bad DCS hit years ago. The three of you guys could be in a room together and people would have a tough time telling you apart. The "K" in your name doesn't stand for "Kim," does it? It'd be pretty weird to find out that y'all are named "Kim," too.

 

[kmitch]

Yeah, I haven't seen it in person, but I'd really like to. I've got a big job coming up in North Carolina, so maybe I should stop in and check it out. What are the new O2ptimas retailing for?

Retail, $7500, if you are ever in or around DC let me know, come check them out.

Very interesting that the O2ptima has it's counter up front - that seems to me like it'd add a lot of bulk or at least feel like a lot of bulk... Is that what the apparent Mae West vest is in your photos? Is that the counterlung? Weird... Never seen anything like that before. It's not in the way? I would think that it wouldn't work very well for streamlining, although I can see your point about everything being up front so you can see what's going on

It seems like a lot of bulk out of the water, but as you noted earlier, 1000 AL 80s is only bulky out of the water! Unlike someone with back mount CL's, I can actually completely clear them if I get water in them, and my manual adds are all right on my ribcage rather than fumbling for a button. Not in the way, once you are in it you don't really notice. Where it looks like I am wearing a 'bib' in the pics is the counter lungs. loop attaches to them on the top, giving the walrus look.

What it looks like normal.

Hunh? What - you were diving 'mix and he was diving air? Why were your deco times shorter? I mean, that shouldn't be a function of the rebreather...

He was diving trimix as well, but compared to CCR he has more deco. His PO2 is at 1.4 only when he is at a certain depth, so back gas is only optimized for that one depth. My PO2 is 1.4 at EVERY depth, so even shallower where my trimix alone isn't ideal, the rebreather adds O2 to bring PO2 up. Higher PO2 for more time during dive = less deco, and the deco you have goes faster. Only way for him to raise PO2 is switch to a richer mix during deco.

...What I WILL give you flack about is that photo - you're so vertical you're actually a little backwards... Of course, I feel like I SHOULD give you flack because I can plainly see that you seem to know exactly what you're doing... If I didn't respect your skill set, then I wouldn't give you flack...

Like I said, I was writing a note to my OW student. You can see the line in the background, I'm maybe at 15 feet and he's at 10 ft fighting with an ear that wouldn't clear. So I'm 'leaning backwards' so that I'm looking up at him (when not looking at the slate) while he swims down to me.

I think I've seen you before on The Deco Stop or something. You know, women are a rare thing at this level of diving, so they tend to stick in my mind.

I am rarely on deco stop, I have a shop name that I'll use to post promos and sales but otherwise try to keep clear. Too much drama and I've discovered that alot of those guys like to talk the talk but never get off their couch to walk the walk. Spend a bit more time on rebreather world.

The "K" in your name doesn't stand for "Kim," does it?

Nope, though that would be funny. K = Kristen.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15591723#post15591723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmitch
Retail, $7500, if you are ever in or around DC let me know, come check them out.

Definitely! Does the price include training? For an RB80, it's about $10,300 for the unit AND training together, and if you don't pass the training, you don't get the unit.

To take the class for the RB80, you must first pass GUE's Fundies ($400), Tech 1 ($2k) and Tech 2 ($2k) classes, and there's a minimum number of dives between each certification level. Obtaining an RB80 is a several-year commitment, along with many tens of thousands of dollars' worth of diving.

And an RB80 really can only be thought of as a "tank extender," not a rebreather, because of it's SCCR design. Unlike your electronic CCR which mixes "on the fly," the RB80 requires you to mix your bottom gas prior to the dive, just as you would with open circuit.

Diving an RB80 is just like diving open circuit - except that it's like having 8 times the amount of gas that you really do.

It seems like a lot of bulk out of the water, but as you noted earlier, 1000 AL 80s is only bulky out of the water! Unlike someone with back mount CL's, I can actually completely clear them if I get water in them, and my manual adds are all right on my ribcage rather than fumbling for a button. Not in the way, once you are in it you don't really notice. Where it looks like I am wearing a 'bib' in the pics is the counter lungs. loop attaches to them on the top, giving the walrus look.

Roger that. I completely understand. I was wondering if that's what that was, or if that was some sort of cell for buoyancy.

He was diving trimix as well, but compared to CCR he has more deco. His PO2 is at 1.4 only when he is at a certain depth, so back gas is only optimized for that one depth. My PO2 is 1.4 at EVERY depth, so even shallower where my trimix alone isn't ideal, the rebreather adds O2 to bring PO2 up. Higher PO2 for more time during dive = less deco, and the deco you have goes faster. Only way for him to raise PO2 is switch to a richer mix during deco.

Oh, that's just too doggone cool. That's one of the huge advantages to a CCR over an SCCR. I thought you might say that. So you can basically nail the perfect mix "on the fly," minimizing your decompression obligation, minimizing the possibility of 'tox, and minimizing the possibility of hypoxia (a 10/70 mix, ideal for 250+', won't support life on the surface).

Like I said, I was writing a note to my OW student. You can see the line in the background, I'm maybe at 15 feet and he's at 10 ft fighting with an ear that wouldn't clear. So I'm 'leaning backwards' so that I'm looking up at him (when not looking at the slate) while he swims down to me.

Yeah, excuses, excuses.

I am rarely on deco stop, I have a shop name that I'll use to post promos and sales but otherwise try to keep clear. Too much drama and I've discovered that alot of those guys like to talk the talk but never get off their couch to walk the walk. Spend a bit more time on rebreather world.

I think it's that way any time you go online. I get really tired of it. That was the reason why I was so skeptical when you first posted.

'Course, you obviously understand this. Thanks for being patient. I was pretty blunt.

Nope, though that would be funny. K = Kristen.

Damn! Well, that's a good thing, I suppose.

...So you're a PADI Master Scuba Instructor Trainer - impressive. What I really want to know, though, is, "Do you teach O2ptima rebreathers?" If so, when's the next class?

Would the O2ptima be a good choice for a 250' dive off of North Carolina? If so, it may speed up my time frame on that job.

 

[kmitch]

Definitely! Does the price include training? For an RB80, it's about $10,300 for the unit AND training together, and if you don't pass the training, you don't get the unit.

No thats just the unit itself. Training is another $1500 or so on top. But of the eCCRs on the market, it is one of the cheapest and best- Dive Rite parts can be had anywhere too.

Oh, that's just too doggone cool. That's one of the huge advantages to a CCR over an SCCR. I thought you might say that. So you can basically nail the perfect mix "on the fly," minimizing your decompression obligation, minimizing the possibility of 'tox, and minimizing the possibility of hypoxia (a 10/70 mix, ideal for 250+', won't support life on the surface).

You got it. Which is why 160' for 1 hr I had 'short deco' we discussed earlier. Hardly more than a safety stop

I think it's that way any time you go online. I get really tired of it. That was the reason why I was so skeptical when you first posted. 'Course, you obviously understand this. Thanks for being patient. I was pretty blunt.

No I understand. I wouldn't normally even post on a thread like this, but leisure pro is a big no no in my book and I felt compelled...

...So you're a PADI Master Scuba Instructor Trainer - impressive.

You must have googled me? I don't think my profile on RC says that?

What I really want to know, though, is, "Do you teach O2ptima rebreathers?" If so, when's the next class?

Right now all I teach is recreational stuff. It took me nearly 8 yrs working in the industry before I became an instructor for recreational stuff, I believe in being a master at something before you teach it. I want a few more years of tech diving seriously under my belt before I teach that, I see too many instructors that rush it.

Would the O2ptima be a good choice for a 250' dive off of North Carolina? If so, it may speed up my time frame on that job.

Any eCCR would speed up the time frame on the job. What unit is alot of personal preference, I chose the O2ptima because I thought it was the best unit for me as a traveler, etc, but other units like the Meg are built alot tougher and might withstand a commercial diving environment better... of course added toughness = added weight.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15595729#post15595729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmitch
No thats just the unit itself. Training is another $1500 or so on top. But of the eCCRs on the market, it is one of the cheapest and best- Dive Rite parts can be had anywhere too.

Yeah, that's a big plus in my book. Price isn't really much of a concern - firstly, anything I spend on diving is written off, and secondly, on a job where it's a requirement, the margins are so high that it's an easily justified expense.

Last night's job alone (about three hours' worth of work) would have paid for a couple of them.

Comparatively, the job off of NC is a week-long project. You can imagine the numbers.

You got it. Which is why 160' for 1 hr I had 'short deco' we discussed earlier. Hardly more than a safety stop

Good God... I didn't read what your bottom time was when you said that above. That's REALLY impressive.

No I understand. I wouldn't normally even post on a thread like this, but leisure pro is a big no no in my book and I felt compelled...

Heh. I guess we're going to have to settle for "agree to disagree" on that topic. They've done nothing but treat me great. I've purchased at least three or four complete sets of regs from them, and everything I've ever gotten is brand new, in a box, and with all paperwork. In each case, the regs were not under a manufacturer's warranty (because LeisurePro is not "factory authorized" for those brands), and in the one case where I had a problem, the entire reg set was replaced under LeisurePro's own warranty (with a different brand of regs), after a year of hard, commercial service. I was duly impressed, and am pretty sure that I would not have gotten that service at one of my LDSes - each of which is more than an hour's drive from my house.

Of interest is to note that the reason that the regs were replaced is because when I had them serviced for the first time, they came back to me with a bad case of IP creep. Of course, I didn't find this out until I was on the job site and needing to work. I lost countless billable hours because of the issue, so it cost me badly. When I finally got around to bringing them back to the "factory authorized" LDS that had done the work, I got a ton of attitude because of the fact that I'd purchased them online. Keep in mind that because of my choice of shops to purchase them from, I paid for both parts and labor during service because the regs "were not under warranty" - which I expected. However, I didn't also expect to deal with the attitude if I was a paying customer, and I didn't expect the regs not to work when I got them back.

Frustrated, I walked out of the LDS (never to return - keep in mind that I spend something like $20k/year on gear and service) and called LeisurePro, who told me to send them in. After a week of them diagnosing, they decided to simply replace with a different brand, at my requiest, rather than repair the regs. I can't tell you how happy I have been with LeisurePro.

You must have googled me? I don't think my profile on RC says that?

Nope. It's on your RC profile under "other info."

Right now all I teach is recreational stuff. It took me nearly 8 yrs working in the industry before I became an instructor for recreational stuff, I believe in being a master at something before you teach it. I want a few more years of tech diving seriously under my belt before I teach that, I see too many instructors that rush it.

Wow... That's impressive. So you're not a "zero to hero" instructor? (I heard that from Douglas yesterday at Extreme Exposure in High Springs and thought it was a hilarious tag.) Seriously, that's really awesome. I can't tell you how many "Super Master Invented Scuba Diving Trainer Instructors with Seventeen Merit Badges and a Gold Star" I have met with less than 100 dives under their belt. In one case, he was divemastering on a boat that I'd chartered on a recreational dive trip in Florida. At a risk of sounding like a jerk, I decided to tip him BEFORE the boat left the dock - I handed him $20 and told him that he was most valuable to me sitting up top with the captain and leaving me alone.

Interested in the Hogarthian rig that I was using, he began to fondle my gear before our second dive of the day. I threw the "worried about sounding like a jerk" thing out the window and told him that if he touched my life support, I was going to break his fingers off.

...So yeah, I'm a little jaded.

Any eCCR would speed up the time frame on the job.

That's huge for me. On this particular dive, boat and personnel costs are something like $7500 per day, not including fuel, food and dockage. The cost-per-minute-of-dive-time difference between OC and an eCCR could probably pay for two units and training for two on this job alone.

in terms of What unit is alot of personal preference, I chose the O2ptima because I thought it was the best unit for me as a traveler, etc, but other units like the Meg are built alot tougher and might withstand a commercial diving environment better... of course added toughness = added weight.

Yeah, the Meg has been a serious consideration, too. Michael Barnette, another buddy of mine (and fellow graduate of the University of South Carolina) swears by them.

 

[kmitch]

Heh. I guess we're going to have to settle for "agree to disagree" on that topic. They've done nothing but treat me great. I've purchased at least three or four complete sets of regs from them, and everything I've ever gotten is brand new, in a box, and with all paperwork. In each case, the regs were not under a manufacturer's warranty (because LeisurePro is not "factory authorized" for those brands), and in the one case where I had a problem, the entire reg set was replaced under LeisurePro's own warranty (with a different brand of regs), after a year of hard, commercial service. I was duly impressed, and am pretty sure that I would not have gotten that service at one of my LDSes - each of which is more than an hour's drive from my house. Of interest is to note that the reason that the regs were replaced is because when I had them serviced for the first time, they came back to me with a bad case of IP creep. Of course, I didn't find this out until I was on the job site and needing to work. I lost countless billable hours because of the issue, so it cost me badly. When I finally got around to bringing them back to the "factory authorized" LDS that had done the work, I got a ton of attitude because of the fact that I'd purchased them online. Keep in mind that because of my choice of shops to purchase them from, I paid for both parts and labor during service because the regs "were not under warranty" - which I expected. However, I didn't also expect to deal with the attitude if I was a paying customer, and I didn't expect the regs not to work when I got them back. Frustrated, I walked out of the LDS (never to return - keep in mind that I spend something like $20k/year on gear and service) and called LeisurePro, who told me to send them in. After a week of them diagnosing, they decided to simply replace with a different brand, at my requiest, rather than repair the regs. I can't tell you how happy I have been with LeisurePro.

I guess that is one of those 'depends who your LDS is' moments. Sure, I can't say that every LDS in the nation is going to offer better service, but a good LDS will back up their customer. Heck our service shop is pretty well known, we've got one of the only HEPA filter partial pressure O2 clean rooms for doing service in a dive shop in the US! We take that stuff seriously, compared to some of the toilet bowls i've seen service done in.

Wow... That's impressive. So you're not a "zero to hero" instructor? (I heard that from Douglas yesterday at Extreme Exposure in High Springs and thought it was a hilarious tag.) Seriously, that's really awesome. I can't tell you how many "Super Master Invented Scuba Diving Trainer Instructors with Seventeen Merit Badges and a Gold Star" I have met with less than 100 dives under their belt.

Yeah I hate instructors like that. Half the time they went to an instructor mill where they just sat on the bottom at 30ft for 15 mins to get dives in. Makes me sick....

 

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15597826#post15597826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmitch
I guess that is one of those 'depends who your LDS is' moments. Sure, I can't say that every LDS in the nation is going to offer better service, but a good LDS will back up their customer. Heck our service shop is pretty well known, we've got one of the only HEPA filter partial pressure O2 clean rooms for doing service in a dive shop in the US! We take that stuff seriously, compared to some of the toilet bowls i've seen service done in.

Unfortunately, I've had a lot more "toilet bowl" experiences than anything else. With the shops I listed above, I have had a much better experience.

The only place I will let touch any of my regs is EE in High Springs.

Yeah I hate instructors like that. Half the time they went to an instructor mill where they just sat on the bottom at 30ft for 15 mins to get dives in. Makes me sick....

Yep, seen it here, too... And I've seen a lot more of that than anything else.

I've completely lost faith.

Hey, wanna see something cool? Watch this show on The Science Channel and tell me if you see anybody you know... http://science.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=48.15713.118063.0.0

 

[coral diver]

Fishkid what i can recommend is go to a dive shop choose a mask that will fit you and other equipment that you might need, and when its time for you to buy your life support never buy from the GRAY Market like Leisure pro and others, buy your gear from a dive shop where the manufacturers warranty is honored and accepted, We at Scubapro provide "parts for life" on our regulator if purchased from dive shop that are certified Scubapro dealer, and another advice start with the starter package due to dive equipment are not cheap no matter what brand it is, and lastly enjoy the sport.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Fishkid, don't listen to coral diver. He works for ScubaPro.

As a representative of the manufacturer, OF COURSE he's going to tell you to buy directly from the manufacturer, from a "factory authorized" shop, and spend as much money as possible. Buy a "starter package" from your LDS, then throw it all away in a year and buy the "latest and greatest" at that time that the manufacturer comes out with. He's going to tell you to buy "starter gear" now, then "advanced gear" later, then "technical gear" again later. This is all manufacturer-speak for "rip you off," and while I am a lover of some of ScubaPro's awesome gear, the company is probably the WORST OFFENDER in the dive industry of unethical practices.

Here's an example - try to get a service manual for your regulator, and they'll tell you no - that they can't do that, and that you have to be a qualified tech to work on your regs. Hogwash. What if auto manufacturers refused to give instructions on how to change the brakes on their cars? Unheard of... Why not simply teach people the right way to do it, like has been done with every other industry? I can assure you that this isn't done out of a "legal liability" issue or "safety" issue like they claim... If that was the case, then auto manufacturers and gun manufacturers and parachute manufacturers would also refuse to publish books on how to care for their stuff... No, ScubaPro refuses to publish service manuals because they want you to go into the dive shop and spend money. Period. And if coral diver denies this, either he's ignorant of ScubaPro's corporate interests, or he's lying to you.

...And the "parts for life" thing is completely, totally oversold and overemphasized. Apparently, however, the wording has improved over what they used to call it (and is still called in most LDSes) - a "warranty." Here's how it works:

Every once in a while (the manufacturer says once a year, but I don't know anyone who actually does it that often, even though everyone I know uses their regs virtually every day), you'll need to have your regs "serviced." During the process, each of the three stages (first stage, second stage, and other second stage) is completely disassembled and cleaned, usually using a chemical process and an ultrasonic cleaner. During reassembly, many tiny parts are replaced... Including o-rings, seals, needles, pins, diaphragms, or whatever. All of these items are available in a "parts kit," usually for about $20 or so per stage. With the labor usually running around $30 per stage, the cost for servicing your regs "annually" should run you about $150 or so with the parts kits. However, most well-equipped shops don't require the parts kits, as they stock these o-rings, needles, diaphragms, etc... So often it's less anyway.

Some shops, however, promise "parts for life," meaning that they'll only charge you labor to have your regs serviced... As long as you purchased them from them and then have them serviced with them. That would mean paying just the labor - $90 for service - instead of being charged for parts as well. OF COURSE they're willing to do that, when they're charging twice what you would pay for the regs in the first place...

In addition, many dive shops will call this "parts for life" deal a "warranty," confusing the service with the manufacturer's warranty against defects... So you'll hear them say things like, "If you buy regs online, they're not under warranty." This is a wholly incorrect statement - by law, if you purchase something ANYWHERE in the US, it's under a legal "warranty implied," whether there's a written warranty or not... Which you don't have to worry about, since there IS a written warranty right in the box for everything sold from places like Leisurepro, Scuba.com, Comdive, or wherever.

...See, that's another case of using confusing wording to influence the consumer. And I don't know of a bigger offender than ScubaPro.

Many shops will also "void" your "warranty" (which is really just the "parts for life" deal) the moment you have your regs serviced at another shop ("factory authorized" or not), or go more than 365 days between services. Next thing you know, you're paying for parts kits anyway... Even when they stock the parts and never actually require a "parts kit" to do your service.

How do I know all of this? I've seen it done hundreds of times, in all manner of screwing the consumer... From both the consumer's standpoint and the technician's standpoint. Want some names? I could rattle off about 50 LDSes that have done this kind of crap to people.

The easiest way I know to avoid it is to shop around and figure out on your own who can be trusted and who can't. And when you figure that out, you'll be surprised to find out which side the local dive shop is on. And it'll tick you off every time you see someone online ignorantly say that items purchased from Leisurepro do not come with a warranty. And in many cases - especially ScubaPro's - it'll floor you that the Federal Trade Commission hasn't yet shut them down.

From a dive shop perspective, ScubaPro is also unethical with their price controls, which is what got everyone into this problem in the first place... Rather than selling merchandise to the merchant and letting him set the price of an item at what the market will bear, ScubaPro controls the price and gives him both an upper and lower limit... If he sells outside of those limits, then he'll lose his "factory authorized" status.

This is totally unethical and anti-capitalist... In a capitalist market, the demand of the consumer sets the price of an item. If the merchant can't sell the item at a certain price, he needs to be able to lower the price to get it out the door. That's how it works here in the US - price is a function of supply and demand, which is based on the consumer's purchasing habits. That is, the consumer ultimately controls price - not the manufacturer.

...Which is why it's unethical and anti-American to force a merchant to not have control over the prices of the items that HE OWNS. Look, ScubaPro, if the merchant already bought the item from you (wholesale), then it's HIS now, not YOURS... And legally, you have no right to control the price that he sells the item for at retail... Or the method he chooses to sell the item (online, phone, catalog, brick-n-mortar). This has been tested before in other industries - that the scuba industry is small enough that you can continue to get away with this crap makes it no less unethical.

Fishkid, look... Here's the deal on gear... Don't purchase "starter" anything... Get what you need the first time so that you have a place to grow in your skills and won't have to re-purchase all new gear when you advance your skills. And support the shop - online or not - that gives you the best service, warranty (not to be confused with "free parts"), selection, and expertise that you can find. Don't let the B.S. that's happening in this industry get you to make a decision based on nothing but smoke and mirrors.

 

[coral diver]

WoW so much Anger SeaJayInSC
1, Why would we provide a non certified technician a service manual do the word "Liabilities" don't mean anything to you, remember we the company are the one liable if anything happen to the equipment or to the person.

I'm sorry Fishkid this is already off topic but like I said what ever brand you get make sure the warranty is good and if it need to be registered do it

 

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15659781#post15659781 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coral diver
WoW so much Anger SeaJayInSC

Yeah, I'm really sick of you guys breakin' the industry's kneecaps. And I'm tired of you guys' threats, and I'm especially tired of your unethical practices and complete misunderstanding of the economies of a capitalist market.

I'm also tired of you guys labeling a shop "factory authorized," then setting their prices for them (price setting is illegal, by the way) and forcing them to purchase gear that won't sell because it's priced too high for that market. When the LDS goes out of business (because it's not selling anything), what happens to that gear that was purchased by the LDS? It gets resold... To Leisurepro... Where it's purchased by the consumer, with you bellyaching about it and declaring items "not under warranty." Baloney!

Here's the bottom line: If you manufacture a good or product, and it's sold within the US and it's territories, it's under warranty, regardless of the method in which it ended up in the consumer's hands (i.e. online, by phone, brick-n-mortar, or whatever - even if it wasn't purchased from a "factory authorized" LDS). That's the law, whether you agree with it or not. It applies to all new products sold in the US, regardless whether it's a home, car, or scuba gear.

I have watched dozens of "Mom and Pop" dive shops go out of business because of these practices. Why would I not be angry?

1, Why would we provide a non certified technician a service manual do the word "Liabilities" don't mean anything to you, remember we the company are the one liable if anything happen to the equipment or to the person.

Negative. Never in the history of US law has there been a case where the manufacturing company was found at fault for any loss simply because they disclosed the proper way to safely maintain the product they were selling, especially when it concerns life support equipment

I addressed that above. I am tired of this "smoke and mirrors" CYA answer that I keep hearing from ScubaPro.

Here's why ScubaPro, and all other manufacturers, have an obligation to the consumer to provide to them the information they need to keep their gear in top-working order... Because there's a moral obligation to tell people the right way to maintain their life support equipment that they purchased from you. If I go get the oil changed in my truck and someone doesn't tighten the drain plug, and the next day I blow my engine, do I sue Ford? If I changed it myself, then who is at fault? When presented with a case like this, not once has any court in the US found the manufacturer at fault... So your "legal liability" claim is completely bogus. I understand that's what your boss is telling you, but it's simply not the case.

I'm sorry Fishkid this is already off topic but like I said what ever brand you get make sure the warranty is good and if it need to be registered do it

Factory warranty is applicable whether you "register" or not. That's the law, and that's how ScubaPro, along with all other manufacturers selling products in the US, play. There are no additional steps that must be taken for your warranty to be applicable for any new product sold here.

...What you need to "register" for is your "free parts for life" deal. I don't personally know of a manufacturer that doesn't require the flyer included in the product packaging to be mailed in, but I believe that some of them also allow you to register online.

...Which is fascinating, when you think about it... That they've embraced the Internet as a method of gathering your information, but don't embrace it as a means of trade. Convenient, hunh?

Interestingly, when you "register" for your "free parts for life," the information that is gathered on you is also sold to "marketing" companies. Want to know why your mailbox and email box are now packed full of spam and sales flyers? It's because you "registered" for the "warranty" on your new scuba regs.

In fact, many of the top "marketing" companies (read: spam companies) now also know that you purchased scuba regs, so they tend to spam and junk-mail you with outdoors stuff, vacation offers, and the like that they think you may end up falling for.

Look, coral diver, I think we can all agree that the industry is in dire straits today... You're either part of the solution or part of the problem - which do you think best describes your company and it's practices?

 

[tgreene]

+1 on everything SeaJay said to "Coral Diver"!

 

[coral diver]

Well sorry to know that how you think of us, I will not sink in to your level and argue with you.

Good luck on your new found sport Fishkid.

 

[tgreene]

I do own a set of AquaLung "Slingshot" fins, but aside from those I will never own a piece of gear from AquaLung/Scubapro due to their attempted stranglehold on the industry!

Cressi doesn't play your "games", which is why I own 2 sets of their top of the line regs. Oh, and in case you haven't perused their spec sheets lately, they are lighter, better breathers, less expensive and HONOR ALL FORMS OF WARRANTIES.

I loves me some Cressi. :bum:

 

[tgreene]

BTW: In regards to the free parts for life scam, I think that we can all pretty much agree that 98% of those parts happen to be a $.70 silicone o-ring with a dab of silicone or O2 safe grease on them... I can spend $15 and buy a LIFETIME worth of o-rings and grease to keep on hand for my own equipment!