Whirling Disease (Dinoflagellate poisoning?)

[SteveL]

The following clip is of a Caribbean Dusky Jawfish showing advanced symptoms of a disease I've been wrestling with in one system I help maintain:

http://youtu.be/V0Yxoj36rEs

Please note the following background:
- Fully quarantined fish all eventually develop this condition when placed in the display tank in question
- It is a terminal condition with death about 1-2 month after developing first symptoms
- First symptoms are usually a few weeks after introduction with occasional spinning as fish gets food
- Fish often feed well right up to the advanced stage
- No other external disease symptoms
- External and internal examination (by trained veterinarian) has NOT concluded the disease
- Corals, crustaceans, echinoderms seem to do fine in the system while fish and snails do not
- a 6 week fallow period did NOT change the status with the display
- This is NOT swim bladder related

Current thoughts are directed to a slimy 'algae' that has been persistent on the rocks of this system. Consistent with photosynthetic dinoflagellate algae. Possible this is releasing a toxin which has a neurological effect.

Open to any other suggestions or reference to others who have observed same.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Symptoms of whirling can be indicative of neurological issues. If all of your fish have done this after introduction into the main then obviously there is the common denominator. What removal methods have you tried on this algae?
My only experience with whirling led to fairly immediate death.

 

[SteveL]

Appreciate the input. Agree the common denominator is in this one system. A second identical set up and maintained system runs right alongside of it without the issue. The differences between the two systems are:

a) the life is different - problem aquarium is a Caribbean biotope system, while the clean system is an indo-pacific focus.
b) the dry rock used for aquascaping is different
c) the algae issue is only in this system although I have needed to battle some cyanobacteria in the indo-pacific.

I originally suspected an Ichthyophonus protists infection but full necroscopy and histo examination from brain sections ruled this out.

Failed attempts to address algae specifically include:
- Clean up crew
- light spectrum
- aggressive use of GFO
- Siphoning
- weekly 10% water changes

About to follow Sprung, Delbeek advice (Reef Aquarium Vol 1, 1994) and raise pH with Kalk. Have been using CaCl2 and NaHCO3 for 2 part. Maybe also do a 1 day total blackout.

 

[thax]

Habe you tried running a lot of gac?

Has this tank had this way since day 1? I wonder if some thing could be leaching out of the rock or sand?

Have you tried sending a water sample in to a lab to get tested?

If you pull a fish that has it but its not advanced yet does it still get worse?

 

[Deinonych]

1 day blackout probably isn't enough. I've seen suggestions for doing 3 days total blackout to knock back dinos. There's a lengthy thread in the Reef Chemistry section about dinos that might be helpful.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000

What are your nitrate/phosphate levels? I had a problem with dinoflagellates a few months back that was due to my nutrient levels being too LOW. I carbon dose using NOPOX, and reducing the dosage allowed algae to regrow and knock back the dinos. Now I have the dosing amount dialed in to what I believe is the right amount that controls algae growth without dinos taking over.

 

[SteveL]

Habe you tried running a lot of gac?

Has this tank had this way since day 1? I wonder if some thing could be leaching out of the rock or sand?

Have you tried sending a water sample in to a lab to get tested?

If you pull a fish that has it but its not advanced yet does it still get worse?

Good questions here. I'll hit them in order.

I am running GAC on this system but I wouldn't say to an extreme. Now that I'm concerned about a toxin (rather than external/internal parasitic disease) that is exactly what I will be doing as I try to kill off the dinoflagellates.

I also had concerns about something leaching from the rock as the sister system to this used a different source of dry base rock. Vendor (one of the big ones) assures me that they've never seen/heard of this from 100's of systems set up with this dry rock. I really don't have a good reason to doubt that as I'm sure we would otherwise have seen this before.

Water samples have been assayed by Triton method. Of course this is ONLY an elemental assay. Would not pick up compounds or any organics. I did it as a 'fingerprint' assessment of the unaffected system versus this affected one. Elemental analysis overlapped each other. But agree a more comprehensive analytical investigation could reveal something. Better though if you have a theory of what you are looking for.

Only fish I've managed to pull have been pretty advanced and off their food. Tricky trying to get small fish out of a 350g public display. Also have not responded to antifungal treatment.

Thanks for good ?'s

 

[SteveL]

1 day blackout probably isn't enough. I've seen suggestions for doing 3 days total blackout to knock back dinos. There's a lengthy thread in the Reef Chemistry section about dinos that might be helpful.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000

What are your nitrate/phosphate levels? I had a problem with dinoflagellates a few months back that was due to my nutrient levels being too LOW. I carbon dose using NOPOX, and reducing the dosage allowed algae to regrow and knock back the dinos. Now I have the dosing amount dialed in to what I believe is the right amount that controls algae growth without dinos taking over.

More good ?'s

Thanks for link to thread on ridding of dinoflagellates. Will read tonight.

NO3/PO4 levels are indeed 'undetectable' by commercial test kits. I'm not carbon dosing but nutrient levels are v. low due to low bioload and I've never had any other algae growth to speak of - either macroalgae or decent coralline for that matter. This has me thinking. Thanks.

 

[SteveL]

I think we're making some good progress on this investigation:

See UpState Reef thread for posted images of the suspect dinoflagellate and latest thoughts:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2513273