White bar Boxfish and oodinium (or something)

[StAiden]

Looking for some advice about best treatments for a cooler water Boxfish that is covered in white cottony patches.
Last week both my Boxfish developed patches all over their bodies and fins. I did freshwater dips twice on the weekend, which seemed to relieve the amount of blotching although it did not eliminate it. So now they are going through a formalin treatment. One has lost a lot of colour.

It is not ich. The blotches are not consistent sizes, are white, and appear more as fuzzy than anything.
There is no blood present or open sores, they are breathing normally.
If the formalin doesn't eliminate this, what are my best options for treatment?

Does anyone know what not to use on a Boxfish?
Water temp is 67 degrees.
What is frustrating is that these fish have been in the system for over 2 months and I run a large uv on it. I thought I had seen a white patch on the smaller one a few weeks ago, but decided it was just a rub mark or part of his colouring. If it had been the start of an outbreak this took over 3 weeks to develop.

 

[ThRoewer]

A close-up picture would help.

When healthy, has this fish a more hard scaly feeling to it when you touch it or is he more slimy like a blenny - this is somewhat important to gage how its skin reacts to ectoparasites.

If fuzzy means strings coming off than it could be Brooklynella (or a coldwater version of it)

If it's more flaky/patchy it could be "skin flukes", Capsalid Monogeneans. A microscopic examination could bring clarity. At a minimum you should examine the formalin bath container with a strong magnifying glass to see if anything came off the fish and if, what.

If it's hairy or like cotton, it could be fungal.

 

[StAiden]

The white spots are more like icing sugar. I have a pic coming as I am away right now, so my partner is sending me some photos.
Will post shortly.
No strings at all. The white spots are small and round on the fins, but on the carapace they are larger and irregular in size.
When healthy these guys are hard not slimy. More like elephant skin.
We ran them for 24 hours in a formalin tank. Today they look better (so I hear) but there are still plenty of white patches on them.
Am thinking the next step is Chloroquine Phosphate or hyposalinity for extended periods. Thoughts?
I have a biopsy set for Friday just need to make it until then.

 

[StAiden]

 

[StAiden]

I have talked to a fish vet specialist who has visually identified this as Cryptocaryons. We are dropping the temperature over the next few days to 60 degrees, proceeding with CP and possibly also going hyposalinity, although will wait until after Friday when I get a positive biopsy.

 

[ThRoewer]

Great to have a Vet for your fish.

Hyposalinity alone has so far always worked for me with Cryptocaryon and shouldn't have any negative effect on the fish if done right. It's something you could start right away.
One thing to know is that hyposalinity prevents the protomonts from encysting and therefore multiplying and continuing the cycle. Therefore it is a good idea to set up a new treatment tank at the treatment salinity and transfer the fish into that tank. That way you have no preexisting cysts in the treatment tank.

Adding CP may not be necessary for Cryptocaryon, but may be a good idea if it turns out to be Amyloodinium after all.

As for dropping the temperature - it's good to buy you time right now, but may later impair the treatment/eradication of Cryptocaryon as it can only be killed when off the fish. At low temperatures the parasites just go into hibernation while still on the fish. Once the temperature goes back up they wake up and continue where they had stopped.

 

[StAiden]

Thank you THRoewer for your insights. I don't want to pretend that I know much about dealing with fish diseases, but I am willing to put my questions out there and learn from others.
I will take your advice and drop salinity. Have caught up with a friend who has dealt with puffers and Boxfish and tells me they can tolerate the hypo just fine, so it makes me more comfortable about trying this option.
Re: temperature:
After reading this article,
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
I started to think about the possibility that lowering the temperature to 55 degrees may potentially eradicate the parasites, not just force them into a dormant stage. I am fine to keep the tank at that temperature, long term, if it improves the health of the fish.

We had been working our way up to 68 degrees over the past month because it opened up some more options for tank mates, including ventralis, which I really want to keep. I have had such poor success with ventralis in the tropical system, and reading Copps posts about his temperate tank at 68 degrees with angels and ventralis, I loved the idea that I could keep all these guys together.
But in raising the temperature, I guess we allowed dormant crypt to populate the tank and cause the outbreak. Which answers the question about how the f did they get in to the system in th first place.
So if the cysts were in the system already at the previous 62 degrees, then you might be right about returning to a lower temperature may only force them to go dormant, not eradicate them.
We will see.
Oh, and what's cool about the fish vet......she is mobile. Which makes sense, cause it's hard to bring a fish to the clinic.

 

[ThRoewer]

That article states:
"A more recent study demonstrated that two life stages of one strain of Cryptocaryon (trophonts, i.e., the feeding stage during which the parasite can be found on the fish, and tomonts) survived dormant for 4"“5 months at 12°C (53.6°F), and, after the water temperature increased to 27°C (80.6°F), developed and infected fish (Dan et al. 2009)."

Though I would take the timespan not as the maximum possible period, but rather the maximum timespan that was tried during that particular study. I think I've read about longer times and also possible cold water strains.

The higher temperatures likely stressed the fish and made them vulnerable to latent infections. And don't be fooled by those who tell you that a system can be kept absolutely disease free - you will always have something to take advantage of a weakened fish.
I would keep this a true cold water tank - maybe add some West Australian Paraplesiops...

BTW, where are you and your Vet located? There are times where I wish I could just have a vet come over and check out my fish...

 

[StAiden]

I am in Canada, near Toronto, so not your neck of the woods! The vet I use is on call with both the Zoo and Ripley's here. Which leads to some interesting discussions, like "sorry, I can't make it today, I have to do emergency surgery on a shark".
It is not cheap. Travel time, examination, med expense, biopsy. But worth it.
My livestock right now include:
2 white bar box fish
1 tiny ornate boxfish female
9 Catalina gobies (although this population may have been reduced by a kelpfish who took a liking to them) he has since found a new home
1 brachyosaurus blenny
Halicurias anemone
Waratah anemones
purple urchins
biscuit starfish
beadlet anemone
jewel anemones
several Florida gorgonians and sponges which like the cool water

Can't keep the Paraplesiops, as it will most certainly eat the Catalinas. I had access to one last year. Beautiful fish. Would love to get more barnacle blennies, but the divers seem to prefer to catch larger easy to catch fish and not the fast moving blennies

Today. I hear that both boxfish are much happier. This is good news.
We are going to SD Macna next week, if you happen to be there, find us.

 

[ThRoewer]

Not sure if I can make it to SD - the wife is already upset about me spending so much time on the fish, so going on a fish related trip may not be taken well.

If your tank is large enough you could try a group of blue spotted jawfish. I found that they can be sexed and one male should get along with up to 4 females.
I have my pair with a group of East Pacific barnacle blennies and they get along well.
I actually saw a good number of barnacle blennies this year, but most were from Nicaragua, so rather like it warm.
The jawfish also like it a bit warmer during the summer. I have my guys at room temperature without a heater or chiller and they are doing fine even if the temperatures go above 25°C. Though in the winter I may need a heater to keep the temperature from dropping too low for the blennies. Time will tell.

I'm not sure if the Paraplesiops species eat fish - Calloplesiops altivelis usually don't. Shrimp is what's on their menu.

I also have some Catalina gobies, but keep them so far on their own - also at room temperature.

In my experience, most subtropical or temperate species not only handle but actually prefer somewhat warmer temperatures during the summer months.

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[StAiden]

Understood about too much time spent w fish not going over well......
I have been talking to Matsu Collection in SD and they hooked me up with one order in the spring. I may hit them up for Bluespotted jawfish, but they tried to find them for me in the spring and couldn't. Also asked for zebra Catalina gobies, and it sounded like they might find them.

Lost the large Boxfish today. I could see blood below the surface of his skin, so wasn't surprised. Biopsy came back as just crypt, nothing else. I put the body in fresh water to see if anything else came out and nothing did.
The small Boxfish is eating today. With the diagnosis I started w a quarter dose cupramine and am now having to read up about the effects of colder water on medications and metabolism and if adjustments are needed.
We have tank temperature down to 60 with the hope that it will either kill or make ineffective the crypt. The plan is to potentially go down a few more degrees, if needed, but I am going to hold here for a bit and see what happens with the Cupramine.

 

[ThRoewer]

Sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Based on this I would assume that the infection has been going on for a few weeks before it got noticed.
I try to give my usual suspects (regals, grammas, clownfish,...) a daily inspection. I know it's in the tank so a heightened awareness is required.

As for the blue spotted jawfish, see if your local store can get them from Pacific Aqua Farms or Quality Marine. I would usually prefer PAF as they don't store them in bags.
Though I think it's not collection season for them right now.

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