White Patch/Spot on H. erectus Belly

[roguemonk]

I tried to get a photo but now she just keeps turning away so I can't get a shot of the side with the spot.

If I get one later I'll post it in a reply.

I have a young erectus (I thought female, but may be a juvy ready to mature) who was a tankmate to two that have succumbed to infections in recent weeks. She has no symptoms that I've seen other than this white patch I observed just this evening. When the lights were on (65 W cf) it looked like a white or pearly patch about as big around as the space between two of her segments, at the very bottom where I think the opening of the male's pouch would be. In the light it seemed "brighter" than her normal patches of white that have changed in other parts of her body over time, which is why I'm concerned.

I used a flashlight just now when I was going to try to photo her, and all I could really see was a small white spot around the middle of where I recall seeing the larger patch earlier. I don't know if that's because of the lighting differences or because she's resting now (and maybe it is just part of her changing pigmentation???).

The general information I've seen tells me I should probably treat for external parasites, something like formalin, methylene blue, malachite green... Any specific recommendations from the old hands would be appreciated.

Tank conditions:

Temp: 72.5
Ammonia, Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
pH: 8.4
SG: 1.026

Thanks,

Brad

 

[peterpiper]

Hi Brad,
Is the white patch on both sides of her body?
If it's only on one side I would look at a fresh water dip to start with.
Treat the water to remove any clorine, match the temp and ph, place a open air line in the fresh water for at least 1 hr to get the O2 up, put something for her to hitch to. dip for 8 min.
If she starts to go off the rails, remove her from the freash water.
You may want to reduce your PH to 8.2 and SG to 1.024

 

[roguemonk]

I was making preparations for the dip (which will involve at least one more trip to the grocery store) and I looked at her again today. No sign of any white patch where it was or anywhere else. Can this sort of thing be benign (could a white patch be part of a normal daily shift in coloration?), or should I go ahead with the treatment?

Thanks,

Brad

 

[peterpiper]

If there is no need to dip then dont. funny how they can change colour hey.
Is she eating, acting normal not rubbing on things?
Do you know what infection the other horses had or any details?
Do you have any corals in with the SH?
Are you running a UV?

 

[roguemonk]

She's eating fine, haven't seen any odd behavior. She's generally puttering around apparently looking for 'pods and other critters that she occasionally finds. Occasionally she swims free, and seems in good control of her orientation (and it's fun to watch!). She's very active.

I have a photosynthetic gorgonian in there, and one small ricrodea mushroom on a rock that she doesn't go around much. She will occasionally hitch on the gorgonian, and neither seems the worse for wear.

She shares the water in her system with a large number of other refugia and tanks. I don't run UV.

I think the others died of bacterial infections. A male got pouch emphysema and the female died of popeye within about 24 hours of the first symptoms.

This one I've been watching very closely ever since, and brought the temp down from where it was before (around 76).

Thanks,

Brad

 

[angieg1123]

Keep an eye on her. If a few of your other horses died it could be vibro. From past experience I have learned that the white patches could be a sign of a vibro infection. It could also just be a loss of pigmentation. Sad to say, but in my case I have never had a horse with the white patches that didn't die within a few months. The patches did come and go but they always showed up again at some point. I ended up throwing out $ 1000's of dollars of tanks, equiptment, LR, LS sumps, etc. to get rid of it from my breeding stock system. It was the most terrible thing I ever had to do in this hobby. I just couldn't take the chance of selling vibro infected seahorse. I also had to euthanize 100's of fry and the parents. I cried for weeks. BUT I eventually started over and back into the breeding / raising fry. Good to go now.

I hope it's not so in your case.
Angie

 

[peterpiper]

I do not think having a SH tank connected to other tanks is a good move... some things that are good for a reef/fish system can be bad for SH. Its to do with pathogens and immune systems. are you SH CB or WC?

 

[pledosophy]

IME older seahorses can experience and display patches of pigmentation loss that resemble white spots that are completely benign.

IME these spots were reoccuring and when they reoccurred happened in the same spot multiple times.

The part of which concerns me is the recent loss of other stock and th connection to other systems.

Because of the previous history if it were me I would begin to supplement the seahorses food with beta glucan (can find it in powder form at most health food stores, can't really overdose, I used a caplet per feeding when I was using it, gut loaded live food with it, but you can soak frozen foods in it or inject it as well). If at all possible drop the temp of the seahorse tank to 68F or below not dropping below 65F or so.

The lower temp will stop the bacteria's most common to cause disease in seahorses. The beta glucan will help to stimulate the seahorses immune system. If you are facing a disease then this can stop it many times before you get to the point where you need antibiotics.

What happened in the tank before the onslaught of disease?

What is the source of your concern for external parasites? IME most external parasites go unnoticed and only become a factor after a secondary bacterial infection. Is there inflamatin of the gills, redness, troubles with respiration?

Internal parasites are much more common in seahorses especially if they are WC, net penned, or are CB and have been fed WC foods. If they are WC's or net pen's have were they treated for parasites before entering the display? Panacur, fenbendazole, etc.

Without more info it's hard to help you. Trying the best I can.

 

[roguemonk]

I do believe that the two prior deaths were due to internal parasites or bacteria (I lean toward bacteria as one exhibited pouch emphysema that I recognized too late and the other had no visible physical symptoms other than a sudden lack of appetite and then disorientation, both of which seem likely bacterial symptoms, but I understand some other parasites might have similar effects). I never noted any unusual patches or changes in pigmentation.

I looked at her closely a few times over the past few days when she happened to be in a good spot. I did see in the area of the erstwhile patch that there seemed to be some loose flesh, possibly an external worm or something, but it was never clear it moved other than with the current, and it was not clearly delineated, just at the end of one of her raised spines. Never got a good shot at a photo, but I wondered if she might have just abraded it against a rock and it was just some loose flesh. Or perhaps she's flirting with growing some leafy appendages which I understand does happen? Perhaps someone who's seen that happen can let me know if it proceeds like that.

While I was watching, I saw something crawling on her tail, so small I could barely see it, but it left her and crawled onto a rock while I watched. It looked like a tiny snail or stomatella, so I concluded (tentatively) that it was not a danger, just a hitchhiker.

She has been eating normally and moving around actively without a sign of trouble ever since.

I'll look up what I can about vibrio and see if I can confirm or deny it.

I am (very) slowly lowering the temperature, and working on moving the pH down (need to obtain some dow flake, so it will take a few days).

What things do you believe I should avoid having in the system that could be a threat to the seahorses?

Thanks,

Brad

 

[ann83]

Is she growing algae? The part about a loose patch on her skin makes me think its possible this is an algae issue, in which case the light patch could have been a spot where the algae had rubbed off. Can you blow water at her gently with a turkey baster or take a clean finger and wipe across her to see if algae wipes off? I do not want to discount the risk of bacterial infection considering the fate of the other seahorses; they are very vulnerable and if there was something in the system, she is definately at high risk. I would definately bring your tank down under 68 degrees as pledo recommended.

Also, were these seahorses all from the same breeder?

 

[roguemonk]

I am still bringing down the temp. The first casualty was a large male who I suspect was WC since I had to train him to eat frozen. The other two were almost certainly from the same breeder, probably the same brood (they were almost identical in size and only slightly different in coloration from the same source). I can't detect any significant amount of loose algae, although I don't rule out that she might have a film of algae. I put three HUGE photos on my web site (I will replace them with smaller versions after you've had a first look, so if you are looking at this historically you should only find smaller files) so beware if they take a few extra moments to download. Especially in the third image if you look just behind her (his, I believe, now) coronet there's a little fleshy protuberance coming almost straight up like Alfalfa's spike, and when she expels water from her gills it sort of shoots upward a tiny bit, I think because of the force of the water expelled. That is a bit reminiscent of the fleshy thing I saw on one of her lower abdominal spines, but that one was much less clearly defined and its motion was not rythmic or predictable. Here are the links:

http://reeflagoon.com/images/images_2008/2008-02-26_01_Mathilda.JPG

http://reeflagoon.com/images/images_2008/2008-02-26_02_Mathilda.JPG

http://reeflagoon.com/images/images_2008/2008-02-26_03_Mathilda.JPG

Thanks,

Brad

 

[ann83]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11953303#post11953303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by roguemonk
if you look just behind her (his, I believe, now)

Yep. you're correct, she's a he. I see the fleshy bit you are talking about, I think, and I am not sure what it is, but I am also not convinced that it is anything dangerous.

Mixing CB with WC is dangerous; it can introduce both bacteria and parasites that could cause problems. Continue to bring the temperature down and look into de-worming regimens for your seahorse. A freshwater dip for him would not be a bad idea either.

 

[roguemonk]

Rest assured no more WC specimens will be entering my system. Where would you recommend I find out what medications I should use for deworming? Also, in general, I was going to ask if the medicines listed in the generic care guide on Seahorse.org are good or if there is a better or more up to date list somewhere?

Here is what they have on Seahorse.org:

Be sure to have on hand:
Formalin 3 and Neosporin (triple antibiotic ointment) as a topical solution.
(Betadine will do in a pinch.)
Kanacyn
Methylene blue
Furan-2 or Triple Sulfa
Tetracycline
Erythromycin
Metronidazole
Neomycin
Nitrofurazone

Optional:
Maracyn II
Furanase
Paragon II
Melafix
Malachite Green
Important meds that may be obtained through your veterinarian or MD:
Acetazolamide (Diamox)
Ceftazime (Fortran)
Praziquantel (Droncit)
Essential tools to have on hand:
Fine gauge IV catheter flexible tubing (without needle)
Tuberculin syringe with needle removed
Loose hairpin with soft plastic tip

I appreciate any help you can give, since I know now that some of this information may well be out of date.

Thanks,

Brad

 

[ann83]

Brad, take a look through the wild caught forum on seahorse.org for different de-worming regimens. You'll want fenbendizole, metronidizole, and praziquantel.