White Spot or Oodinium or ???

[willhoward]

Hi, recently I bought a Yellow Longnose Butterfly, and unfortunately I couldn't get it to eat, saw it got sick and died the next day Today I decided to do some reading up to conclude my post mortem and hopefully not have to go through this again. Please help me identify which illness it was. Here are the facts:

~ bought the YLB from LFS and it looked a bit bleak / pale, but very active. I asked the LFS-guy and he said that the fish has only been in the tank for 3 days, so it is still stressed, and that's what caused the coloration.
~ I asked the LFS-guy and he sweared that the YLB had started eating frozen brine shrimp.
~ took fish home and went through proper quarentine and acclimatation and put the fish into my QT
~ within the next day the fish developed a kind of shiver, like it is getting cold, and bumped the bottom part of his tail on the bottom of the tank (bare bottom tank without any LR)
~ I assumed a parasite or white spot of some or other illness and dipped the fish in a bucket with Seachem's Paraguard for an hour, and returned the fish.
~ I observed the fish over the next 2 days, and never saw that shiver again - so I thought problem solved.
~ still the fish didn't want to eat anything - pellet food, mussle, frozen brine shrimp, frozen plankton - I even added garlic - nothing
~ after a week of not eating, I got worried and asked around for suggestions. couple of people and books said to put it with other tanks mate so that it could see what the other fish eat - sounded like a good plan
~ dipped the fish again in Paraguard for just in case, and released into main tank (1 week after purchase)
~ first night the YLB and my Bicolor Angelfish did some chasing, but next day all was well.
~ for next two days all was well, and YLB was between other fish when fed, and got excited as all other fish were, but showed no notice in any food.
~ on third day I noticed the entire fish covered in little white spots, exactly like fine grain salt. The body, fins, face and even the snout.
~ after alot of hasstle and removing LR I managed to catch the fish and put him back into QT.
~ because of all the stress the fish went through, I thought it best not to do a freshwater dip or another Paraguard dipped ATM and planned it for the next day.
~ the next day when I got home from work, I found the fish dead and floating on its side. Although in the water, the fish actually looked dry and kind of black (they might just look like that when dead, I don't know, never have lost a fish this way)

Now, I think think that it is White Spot or Oodinium (Velvet / Coral fish disease), which are very similar. Thing is - I didn't see a whitish film over the fish and/or any mucus from the gills. It was pale from the beginning and didn't want to eat, it had little white objects and died short after their appearance. Which one could it be?

And then another frightening question: what about the fish in my main tank? Are they fine? It is 3 days after I put the YLB again in QT and they show no abnormal behaviour and still eat like pigs. If the white spots were still on the YLB, does it mean that they havn't started to form spores and spread yet?

Thank you in advance for any advise!

 

[wooden_reefer]

I believe it is ich not Oodinium. Oodinium on fish is very fine dust like.

I think having the correct setup in the QT will help you maintain the patience to quarantine properly.

The QT needs biological filtration and good gasous exchange at a minumum.

QT is NOT only a place to "observe" a newcomer; it is also a place to eradicate external parasites like ich and Oodinium etc. QT is also a place for mental acclimation of your fish for life in capitivity.

Having functional biologial filter in your QT would better induce and motivate you to thoroughly rid your fish of ich and Oodinium. It takes weeks of repeated drug administration to do so. For external parasites like ich and Oodinium, your objective should be to kill the very last organism so that your fish will never encounter the disease.

Some medication will damage or destroy your biological filter, some will not or will only have a minor impact. It is very important for you to learn the impact of individual medications on your biological filter. In general, copper at a level just enough to kill ich (0.15 to 0.3 ppm copper ion) will not have much impact on your biolgical filter. Some antibiotics with destroy your biological filter, some only suppress it somewhat.

LR (even if you had it) is a poor biological filter for a QT.

I do not use LR for fish QT. I use the old and trusted crushed coral or even crushed oyster shell. If your main tank does not have cycled biological filter media, you may have to cycle your QT. I alway have cycled media that I can put in the filter of my QT.

If you need to cycle your QT, the best way is to seed it will bacteria from your main tank, and then just add powered fish food such as a small piece of shrimp which has been turned into a milky mix with a blender. Just wait 6 to 8 weeks.

The simplest QT is just a round 5-gal bucket with about an inch thick of cycled crushed coral at the bottom. A small powerhead (likely has to be restricted somewhat) is place near the top; both circulation and gaseous exchange are thus simply achieved. A small to medium sized fish can live like this for weeks.

I also use UV but only when no UV degradable medication is present. UV has no impact on copper, but may destroy antibiotics. For fish that is apparently healthy, this is in fact my basic combo: copper and UV for six weeks.

 

[juuniz]

never ever use crushed coral on QT, as medicating fish can be difficult.. U'll get difficulty to dose proper level of copper if u use any..

Simple QT tank use only bioballs and sponges.. UV may help..

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10247089#post10247089 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by juuniz
never ever use crushed coral on QT, as medicating fish can be difficult.. U'll get difficulty to dose proper level of copper if u use any..

Simple QT tank use only bioballs and sponges.. UV may help..

I deliberately use crushed coral all the time with success.

It is a misconception that copper level needs to be constant; the fact is that pulses work fine.

I used to use copper test kit but I don't anymore, not every time.

In a tank with a lot of calcerous material, I first add to 0.25 ppm at once. Then I add to achieve 0.15 ppm assuming it has all preciptated (not know what is actually is) every 72 hours or 96 hours. The fact is that 0.15 to 0.3 ppm is OK when repeated, so the copper lever does not exceed 0.3.

Make sure you use straight cooper , not chelated copper.

You can also use a copper test kit if you insist. It is OK too. In fact I sometimes use it once or twice in the six-week period just to be very sure.

I tell you repeated pulses over the cousre of several weeks works quite well, at least for fish that is only slightly infested, as one should assume.

Any unnecessary procedure reduces the incentive to quarantine thoroughly, I believe.

 

[kevin2000]

My 02

Copper is "chemo therapy" for fish. Too much harms the fish .. too little it's not effective on the parasite your trying to impact.

The amt of copper within the water column (not the tank) is what kills the parasite. Use of copper without a test kit runs the risk of harming the fish or being ineffective on treating the disease. Placing a calcium carbonate substrate like crushed coral within a QT runs the risk of having the copper adhere to that substrate removing the copper from the water column .. that increases the risk of having too low a copper concentration to kill the parasite.

If you use Copper ... prudence would argue that you stay away from calcium carbonate and use a test kit.

This isn't a controversial issue in this hobby.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10248309#post10248309 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kevin2000
My 02

Copper is "chemo therapy" for fish. Too much harms the fish .. too little it's not effective on the parasite your trying to impact.

Use of copper without a test kit runs the risk of harming the fish or being ineffective on treating the disease. Placing a calcium carbonate substrate like crushed coral within a QT runs the risk of having the copper adhere to that substrate removing the copper from the water column .. that increases the risk of having too low a copper concentration to kill the parasite.

If you use Copper ... prudence would argue that you stay away from calcium carbonate and use a test kit.

This isn't a controversial issue in this hobby.

Actually it is.

It is true that the Cu level has to be at a certain range, but it is a range that has some significant width.

I am stating from decades of experience that pulse also works. In fact, fish do not suffer as much even at somewhat higher level if the pulse is brief.

You can also remove all calcerous material and hope to carefully maintain a more constant level with cu test kit. It is up to you.

I am of the opinion that pulse method maintained for longer period has the advantage of ease and so it better motivate people to quarantine thoroughly. All one needs is to be more patient, not much work and expense. This is what I do and will always do.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Don't get side-tracked about a contravesrial point about constant level vs pulses of cu.

The point is that you need a functional biological filter and adminster drug for an extended period of time. If you can get by with and are committed to just three weeks using constant cu level, that is fine too.

But go back to the point.

Between myself and my brother, we must have repeated the same procedure about 40 times for the past 25 years. There has not be a failure yet.

May be we have been somewhat lucky and the success rate may have been really only about 95%. This is quite possible, but in any form of medicine, even that involves human life, the percentage of compliance is always a factor. More people need to be committed to serious quarantine.

In the early 1980's, a moron in my LFS told me that cu to treat ich will kill my nitrification bacteria. This piece of misinformation had cost me many beaufilful fish.

 

[juuniz]

i just said it can be difficult but it can be done.. i prefer to use pvc pipe for hiding and bare bottom(to syphon waste easily).. Water change regularly is a must.. for biological filter, i just use a canister of bioballs and sponges.. CMIIW a correct copper level wont harm biological filter that much.. some bacteries will die but not all of it..

2ndly dont put too many fish in small QT cause it may cause fast ammonia build up

so far i have only 1/2 casualties from around 15 fishes..

 

[wooden_reefer]

That is just it, so much work.

If your QT has well-established cycled biological filter, MOST of the times you do not need to do many water changes. May be just 50% once at the 3rd or 4th week.

I said most of the times. The only times that a lot of work is required is when you have to resort to a drug that will damage your biological filter. Most likely is if you have a nasty bacterial infection. But since I had started using the UV effectively, I almost stopped having this type of infection.

I have also bought a few sich fish at the LFS at very low prices as is if I think a complete cure is likely, namely external bacterial infection or ich infestation, and if the fish is otherwise very robust fundamentally.

 

[willhoward]

Whoa, easy guys Thanx for the inputs so far. So you both agree that it is Ich (White spot) and not Oodinium. By the way, is Ich=Ick?

Another question ~ My Bicolor Angle and Firefish started showing strange behaviour last night. Rubbing themselves agains rock and the aragonite. I assume some of the parasites escaped the YLB and now found their way to them. It might not be the case, but I'm on Red Alert. What is the first sign of illness (Ich) I should be on the lookout?

It is almost impossible to remove the fish, I would have to remove all the live rock from my tank first (which I don't want to do) I've lowered the salinity from 1.015 to 1.010ppm. Is there anything I can do, like raise the temp or something like that - without having to remove the fish?

As I've mentioned, I've got ParaGuard. On the bottle there is very few info, something like it's a substitute for formalin baths. Can I put this into my main tank every day and then just do big water changes afterwards?

I havn't got any corals in my tank, and the only invert is a hermit crab which will be ALOT easier to remove than any of the fish. I only concern with this approach is wheter the ParaGuard will leach into my tank, and / or distroy my biological bacteria and liverock?

Any ideas?
Thanx in advance.

 

[kevin2000]

Since you have already dropped your salinity I don't see the point of using Paraguard (which isn't all that effective against ich anyway).

Remember that hypo may kill off alot of the infauna within the live rock and substrate .. while very small all that decomposition may create an ammonia spike in your aquarium. Keep a close eye on ammonia and be prepared to do water changes as necessary (I would make up a large batch of replacement water now).

Hope this helps.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Do not do hypo in your show tank.

Do hypo, copper, and UV in your QT that has a functional biological filter for ALL ALL ALL your fish for 6-8 weeks depending on the temp.

Let your show tank be farrow, ie fishless, for the same duration.

Kiss Ich goodeye.