Who's actually tried locally collected salty sand?

MadReefist

New member
Hello I hope to hear from people who have actually treied using sand from the ocean / gulf / etc. After a 6 year hiatus from the hobby I intend to do a pretty big multi-tank setup and aren't trying to pay 'thousands' of dollars for sand (and rock).

Or course true live rock is completely illegal to collect (and not even available near shore anyways), but the marine collection guidelines for Florida make no mention of sand (which is infinite compared to the hobby especially compared to commercial fishing and the demand there).

Now for me the logic is quite simple: maxiumum biological diversity is the maximum environment. Within reason of course, as in people obsessed with eating organic anything swearing by the concept of 'organics' despite the fact that many of the most toxic and deadly substances on earth come from nature. Or how too much water will kill a plant (that REQUIRES water to exist).

Now I get the concept that there can be parasites or other hitchikers that are undesireable.

Getting back to the true thread topic however, in my own experience of years of marine aquaria where I'm at in Tampa, for about 4-5 years, after moving here from Michigan where I started in the hobby (and learned most of the core screwup lessons such as overfeeding etc)... despite the warnings I ALWAYS added pretty much everything I could that had any sort of place in my tank. And yes, without quarantining.

This went from everything from all sorts of odd invertebraes, various rock chunks that had cool things like barnacles on them, scoops of sand from virtually every locale I happened to visit from Tampa to Ft Myers to the Keys, fish even ogly ones during my first stretch here when I was broke, etc.

Eventually only store type fish ever made it into my tank, but there were plenty of creepy crawlies from the store, and the locale. Thinking back the only real losses I had were things such as filter feeding oysters or such I lacked the system to support.

As far as algae problems, in hindsight they did exist during a long period but the last roughly 2 years that all ended. My last tank had been a 4'x2'x2' tank, with huge surface area. I would generally go to the trouble to go to the grocery store and get RO water, but going to school everynight while working full time in those days... my biggest menace was evaporation. The thing had to have been going down 2-4" a week. In a 120 gallon that was a big problem in making sure tap water never went in. The thing was, the lower it would get the faster it would evaporate.

But eventually I was able to afford an RO system built into the stand (thank ebay), an auto-topoff-system, and proper glass lids.

After this all of my problems went away: hassles trying to keep the levels up with proper water, undesireable algae blooms, etc. I dont recall losing any store fish during any of this, but they were definitely happier. I even had one that I didn't notice until intense observation once I got it home... it had ick that I didnt notice at the store. I was freaked, but decided to play my luck as destroying the tank to catch one fish seemed like worse than the solution. In those days I was able to scrape by to get my ideal DT, and maintain it within reason, but the extra burden of 'proper' quaratining was a major burden.

Anyways, that fish got perfectly healthy after a couple weeks, none of the others got sick. I attributed it to the in system RO upgrade specifically. I didn't get out of the hobby from any problems from semi-regularly adding locally collected whatever, instead after moving 3 times in a few months after trying to move in with a chick who got all crazy, blah, moving 120 gallons breaks you. The fish store that was supposed to take care of my fish for a couple weeks while I moved sold them on me, whatever.

My favorite fish of them was one my good friend caught by hand while out fishing in Tampa Bay. It was 'green worm eel' that the LFS guy sold without even being able to identify it. I didnt even know what it truly was, then, I could never find anything on google by trying to describe it. It was about a foot long, lived a good 2+ years old under my care, tunneled all under the substrate, non-aggressive, RARE, COOL. My friend brought him over and dropped him 'right in' (acclimation of course) and he disappeared for a long period of months but one day jetted out of nowhere and scared everyone. No quarantine, I didn't have a place to do it, and he needed to get into the water.

My filtration from the start moving down here was primarily 3 Magnum filter canisters, and some BS minor filters as backups. The Magnums I kept daisy chained. One was the micron filter element I kept charged with diatomaceous earth, next was the proper carbon chamber, and the last was filled with those hollow clay bio pellet things. Also in them was this filter pouch thing I had forever that had this odd micro BB shaped media in it that it claimed was to remove heavy metals, which I could recharge I think by boiling. But eventually was able to afford a good wet/dry sump w/ built in skimmer, and I had other things I had built such as a 4' tall fluidized sand filter made from 4" schedule 80 PVC I salvaged from a construction site. It was hell tuning that thing to work right without being able to see inside it but I eventually did.

The only thing I really had left on my list was a refugium sump. But I saw the others as more important in providing the fish life support, the refugium was the final step before I'd buy actual coral pieces and anenomes.

Without the refugium I will say that I was able to buy random pieces of liverock here and there (which was actually the point, in providing maximum diversity)... which finally climaxed with only buying from Tampa Bay Saltwater (when they still had their walkin location)... This rock was breathtaking in my experience. When I left Michigan in 2001 there were stores charging upwards to $15 per lb. (literally) for Fiji rock that WAS purple, but had NOTHING on this rock. The life that poured out of this rock only spread onto and into everything else.

Despite my (in hindsight) overall lackluster filtration versus adding in random locally collected sand and bits and creatures, for the better part of the run, not one store bought fish 'ate it'. Nothing did, that I can recall which wasn't some specialty oddity which would only be inherently fed in the same manner as coral.

NOW... I didn't ever have a refugium built completely out of local salty sand. Nor did I have a "DSB" built from such. I had about a couple inches across the bottom of the tank that built up over time.

PARASITES never destroyed my tank.

NOR did polutants ever cause harm that I can see in hindsight.

HOWEVER, in comtemplating using deep sand elements and lots of sand segments, and perhaps some layers of "mud" harvested semi-near mangrove areas, in particular are of my concern ARE would-be pollutants.

BUT in general I'm anxious to hear from others who have had direct experience with locally collected salty substrates. If you've had a bad experience, are you sure you used RO water only to top it off?

Thinking back, topping the damn thing off all the time before I had built in RO ended up meaning few actual water changes (whatsoever), in just trying to keep it full (which wasn't always RO water even, it was such a hassle).

Tonight I read an old thread somewhere where several people answered this overall question with "ask the people at your LFS". Well considering that "live" sand and liverock are the bread and butter of these places, of course they'll advise against it in any capacity. One LFS in Michigan told me the Bicolor Angel fish he sold me was a good eater. I killed half the tank overfeeding in desparation trying to get him to eat ANTHING at home with at least 10 different foods. Another LFS simply told me that a baby panther grouper was "kind of mean"... but failed to tell me how he would systematically eat every fish in the tank starting with the cleaner wrasse of all fish.

In FL my LFS experiences haven't been much better, considering the same LFS I was paying to house my fish during a move sold my worm eel in less than 2 weeks when he couldn't even identify it. A couple weeks ago I went browsing stores to get caught up, and Naso Tangs (for one single example) which used to cost about $35-45 now cost $90-100+. When I asked about the price hikes over that past 6 years instead of hearing my own theory that collection restrictions have clamped down on supply, that instead shipping costs are to blame... yet damsels which once cost $2-3 for some reason dont now cost $25. Meanwhile online fish suppliers have free shipping, while the rock most fo them are selling for $5 per lb. looks like regular bleached rock that is kind of dirty from being in the vats.

SO I don't believe in LFS's, but I believe in YOU, who do have actual experiences in this topic.
 
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:fish1: I collect my own sand from the outer reefs off of Islamorada in the Florida Keys for my DSB in my sump and my display tank. I also collect mud from around mangrove island to mix with the sand I collect on the reef for my refugium where I grow sea grasses and mangroves. I've been doing this for over 20 yrs and never had a problem with excess nutrients or parasites. Collecting your own sand or mud from an area that is not polluted gives your tank a much greater diversity of life when you start it up. I also belive in using good quality live rock for the same reason. Who cares if you release a few hitchhikers into your tank when using live sand or rock, the greater biodiversity makes it a lot easier to establish the tank. Go for it and collect all the salty sand you can, just be careful where you collect it. :beer: :).
 
I too have collected sand from an estuary island in GA and had no issues. Good pod life and nothing out of the ordinary. I have received fresh sand from mangrove swamps in the Tampa area, best sand I have had. The guy went out that morning, got me what I requested and we met up that afternoon. Could not have asked for more micro-fauna. Again, nothing bad came in the sand either.
 
that was a long story with alot of points i just don't get or agree with. fish survived ich because of a RO system?

anyways back to your original question, without the long history, if you get sand away from the coast line it would be better. Any sand where people are could be contaminated with pollutants that you don't want in your tank. Just watch youself, the mindset that "I can put anything in my tank without QT or regard for where it came from" can have dramatic affects and even total system crashes. NOt worth it in my opinion but save 100 bux on sand go for it champ!
 
I think its only worth it if you do it from the beginning. To do it later on would be a bit riskier and a pain in the butt.
 
I'm happy to hear of those good results!

@jamesdean:
Um, no RO water didn't cure it of ich. Being happy and healthy enough to resist it naturally did. When my problem of having to occasionally re-top it off with tap water was eliminated, this enabled that environment.

My DSB sump will contain 100g of sand/crushed-coral/mud at a depth of 36". That's a lot of sand. Wet live sand costs about $20 per gallon (and thats a good price, for some good local offshore stuff). Do the math, and then act smug.
 
Don't....

Don't....

Ok first off nothing ruins a good investment like cutting the wrong corners.
:debi:

If you use sand from the ocean it can (and will) scratch your glass... It will get trapped behind your magnet or under your hand scrubber... I have had many people come into my fish store ( Rockin Reef... St.petersburg,FL 33710 ) trying to get rid of nice tanks because of this reason...

The "sand" you buy from the stores is actually crushed coral not rock... Crushed coral is softer than sand.... And as glass is made from sand a softer material won't scratch it..

Hope this helps... :thumbsup:
 
The sand/mud mix in my refugium I collected from an estuary. Has worked well for me. I would strongly recommend quarantine before using--especially for a warmer water area like you appear to be in.
Mark
 
@Seedless: Because that only fills about 2 gallons of volume. I have 100g to fill. But also how "live" is a "bag of sand" really anyways?

@Harpo: Awesome! For how long has it been active, and how much volume / depth is there, etc?
 
Live sand is a complete waste of money. Just buy dry sand. How do you figure 30lbs of sand will be good for 2g. You won't need anymore than 3 bags for your 100g. Under a 100 bucks and you start with clean sand. Seems like a no brainer IMO.


Plus you are in Tampa. Call tampabaysaltwater.com to buy your dry rock. Great guy that runs the place. It saves a ton since you can pick up locally. It runs like 2.00 a lb I think.
 
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It doesn't seem like dry sand would come preloaded with masssive amounts of natural micro organisms. Wet sand tallies in about about 16lb. per gallon. The so called "live sand" or "live aragonite" in a bag at the LFS's goes for something like $20 and would maybe fill a gallon pitcher if poured in. The other day I bought $20 worth of gulf sand collected from an offshore liverock aquaculture site. At $1.50 per lb. it would fill a gallon and slightly more.

A gallon of dry sand weighs 9.6lbs. 100g of dry sand would therefore require 960lbs of sand. 50lbs. of playsand from Home Debit costs $4. So that's about $80 going that route all-in.

Now of course I'm going to use some of that material to fill the space cost/time efficiently. Don't mind the idea of having a nice zone of smooth clean 'virgin' sand in there. But as natural as possible with maximum biological diversity is my goal with my new build.
 
Most people don't use "live" sand. There is no need to get bags of live sand what so ever its a gimmick. Start off with some dry sand and dry rock. Seed that will a few lbs of live rock and you are good to go. There is enough life in the few lbs to populate an entire tank. start with a pest free clean tank and save some money!!!
 
Madreefist: The refugium has been up for about 5 years. Initially I put in 3 x5 gallon buckets full of the sandy mud. Over time the amount has decreased. I'll probably add another 5 gallons this year. In my case it was purely for the minerals and bacteria-- I drained the excess water and let it sit in the closed buckets for a month before using it to be sure most or all of the higher life forms had died off. Again I want to stress that bad things can come in with the sand especially from a semitropical location going in to a reef tank. Be sure to quarantine it.
Mark
 
Madreefist: The refugium has been up for about 5 years. Initially I put in 3 x5 gallon buckets full of the sandy mud. Over time the amount has decreased. I'll probably add another 5 gallons this year. In my case it was purely for the minerals and bacteria-- I drained the excess water and let it sit in the closed buckets for a month before using it to be sure most or all of the higher life forms had died off. Again I want to stress that bad things can come in with the sand especially from a semitropical location going in to a reef tank. Be sure to quarantine it.
Mark
 
I'm concerned with the bacterias that would die off in that process.

I haven't yet seen any kind of list of potential nasties that could come in from such live media. I know my aquacultured LR is from offshore on this same (Tampa) parallel. This rock puts Fiji etc LFS rock to humiliating shame. No quarantining and killing iff the life on this rock. Totally counterproductive to everything that inspires me.
 
I collected about 15 gallons of sand for a DSB from the Gulf of Mexico, in Galveston, Texas and another 10-15 gallons of crushed shells that I used to make homemade live rocks. I rinsed everything in fresh water when I got it, then I let it sit for several days, then I rinsed throughly again in freshwater before I put it in my tank. This was the result:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2108072

I ended up with with this nasty crap that no one could identify, eventually I decided that I probably had a dino that is sometimes called "Golden Alga" I tried everything possible to get rid of it, but I think my deep sand bed was slowly releasing some N and P and feeding it (even though my N and P always read 0). I tried lights out for days, starvation, heavy H2O2 treatments, even removing all livestock and adding a cup of bleach to the system, it still came back. Eventually I had to throw out ALL my sand, all my homemade rocks, and break down the entire system.

For my few bits of livestock that were not killed by that crap had to go in a 5 gallon bucket in my dark closet for weeks while I starved them and HEAVILY dosed them daily with H2O2 (5ml/day for weeks)

In my opinion? Not worth taking the chance.
 
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