Why are my fish dying in QT?

[Philwd]

Well I just had another fish die in QT. A randall's goby. It was 4 weeks along. It died over night.

My setup is a 20G with 2 Aquaclear HOB filters; a 30G and a 20G. So I have lots of filtration. I set the bacteria population with biospira. I have used this in the past with good results. Tank has been used for 3 fish now and was bleached out in between fish. Other 2 fish lived and are in the display. Temp control through a titanium htr with controller. Separate digital thermometer to keep tabs. I also have a ph probe constantly on to monitor ph. Lighting by a 96W VHO. Couple pieces of PVC for caves. Using Copper Power proactively just for the last 2 fish.

I seem to have this issue with fish getting in distress at about the 3-4 week mark. I do WC every week and siphon out every couple days. My problems seem to coincide with algae growth starting. The past 2 fish that lived also seemed to be in some distress about this time. I did 100% WC and they pulled through. The fish start hanging out at the top of the tank near the most water turbulence. This time the goby went back down and seemed to be ok. Not breathing heavily. No visible spots etc. He did stop eating that I could see about a week ago. But he could have eaten when I wasn't looking. He did eat earlier.

My theory is oxygen deprivation and the fish are having trouble breathing. I do scrub the algae out but seem sif anything to make it worse. I have added an airstone in the past(not this time) but doesn't seem to help. Since the fish die overnight I'm thinking this lends more credence to the O2 theory since with lights out the algae won't be contributing O2. But I'm not sure what would be sucking up the O2? The water while not as crystal clear as starting wasn't too bad. I had done a 30% WC day before and cleaned out the filters. I never measure any NH3, temp 78C ph 8.3 SG 1.026.

Anyone else notice this? I have done lots of readin
g on QT and the things that seem to trip up are ph, SG, NH3 due to inadequate biological filter. I have not run across any accounts of the fish having issues breathing without visible signs. Not at the 4 week mark.

Sorry for the long post.

Phil

 

[kevin2000]

My 02

I suspect the primary reason fish die in Qt is lousy water quality and that's a good place to start ... what's your ammonia level .. how are your reading it .. how often do you measure it? Your goal when running a QT is to keep ammonia levels at zero .. if that means making large water changes on a regular basis .. so be it. Using an inexpensive Seachem ammonia alert badge in a Qt is a convenient method for monitoring ammonia .. worth a look.

Qt's do just fine with little or no lighting and I would never place a big arse light on top of my QT ... helps promote alga and I think that subdued lighting is less stressful for a fish. Remember one of your prime goals is too keep stress levels down and you only need enough lighting to observe the fish.

Not sure what "copper power" means ... if your using copper as a prophylactic measure then you should note that many would argue that is stressful to the fish and may do more harm than good. More importantly if you don't have a good test kit and do not accurately measure the proper copper concentration you can kill your fish ... remember that Copper is basically chemo-therapy and something that you need to closely monitor.

I doubt your oxygen depletion theory- algae creates oxygen during the day and its doubtful that it would consume enough during the night to have a significant impact ... makes more sense that your fish's gills have been burned by ammonia build up.

Rather than using biospira (considered questionable/worthless by some/many) you are better off taking mature bio filter material from your St and placing it into your Qt filter. If you keep some sponge filter material tucked away in your sump or St you can always use this material in your Qt power filter.

Here's some good links on QTing .. might give you some ideas on how to improve your setup and methodology.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-02/atj/feature/index.php
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/quarantinetanks.html
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288805

Hope this helps .. good luck.

 

[jeffbrig]

I would also recommend checking the water quality. The point where you see algae growth is the point that you water quality is heading south. The fact that two fish that pulled through only after you did a massive water change seems to back up that theory.

My personal favorite filter for a QT is the oft-maligned biowheel filters. Once matured, they are great at quickly converting ammonia->nitrite->nitrate. You'll need to do water changes to avoid a buildup of nitrate, but it's MUCH less toxic than the others.

Biowheels are very inexpensive at petsmart - they will match their website's prices, just print the page and take it with you.

 

[davidcalgary29]

You seem to have some classic symptoms of nitrite poisoning -- the rapid gill movement/aspiration and attraction to turbulent water sources -- and I'd check params immediately. It's possible that, due to the fact that you do not have a permanent QT tank, that the tank cycles every time you use it, and that a lethal spike is reached after a certain amount of waste builds up (at the 3-4 wk range).

 

[kevin2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6635248#post6635248 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by davidcalgary29
You seem to have some classic symptoms of nitrite poisoning -- the rapid gill movement/aspiration and attraction to turbulent water sources --

No offence intended but nitrite is less an issue in SW than many believe and I have never heard of nitrites being an issue in a QT environment -- the water quality issues in a Qt environment tend to be ammonia and PH -- many would say you never need to test for either nitrite or nitrate.

 

[Philwd]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I was testing for NH3 daily with a Saliferts and read 0 through 2 weeks and then stopped. Didn't test for NO2 this time as I never got any NH3. I never got around to taking the fish out yesterday so I thought I'd test again tonight. Still no NH3. I used 2 different test kits, the Salifert and a cheapo old kit I got back starting up. Neither detected any NH3. Suspicious since the fish has been decaying for a day now. I'm starting to wonder if I have a bad test kit. Would explain a lot. Ammonia badge time I think.

I have in the past used seeded sponges etc to start up my QT. Last 2 times have been more unplanned and that's why I used bio spira. I never tested any NH3 so I thought it was ok.

Kevin thanks for the links. I had read those already and are a must for anyone setting up a QT. Copper Power is a copper med that claims to be 60X less toxic to fish and does not precipitate out of solution so stays active for many weeks. Only reason I have a big light is my 10G is used for clam and coral QT and I use this light for that also.

I agree with everyone I have a water quality issue but with all the tests reading 0 my only common hint was the algae growth.

So I take it nobody else gets these water quality issues after 3-4 weeks of QT?

 

[jeffbrig]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6637092#post6637092 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd

So I take it nobody else gets these water quality issues after 3-4 weeks of QT?

I've had water quality issues in QT as well. My general response is to do 50% daily water changes for a few days until things get back to happy levels. I generally don't put freshly mixed sw in my QT either. Rather, I do a water change in my main display, and the discard water goes to the QT (after diluting to match sg for hypo, etc.)

I just completed QT and hyposalinity on an achilles tang, generally regarded as a very fragile fish. Started out with an immature biological filter, and had to rely on a lot of water changes initially to make it work. If any detectable ammonia was in the tank, the tang's colors were way off - the proverbial canary in a coal mine. My best advice is to watch your fish very closely, and do massive water changes anytime appearance or behavior shifts.

The achilles ended up spending 4 months in my 55g QT. 2 months of true QT (hypo plus an observation period), then it was more of a holding tank for the next 2 months while getting the display was ready for him. By the end the QT had a fully mature biological filter, and was run more like a FO tank.

 

[davidcalgary29]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6635582#post6635582 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kevin2000
No offence intended but nitrite is less an issue in SW than many believe and I have never heard of nitrites being an issue in a QT environment -- the water quality issues in a Qt environment tend to be ammonia and PH -- many would say you never need to test for either nitrite or nitrate.

I appreciate your comments and understand the controversy over this particular subject but -- having lost four beautiful fish during two separate nitrite spikes (and no measured ammonia amounts over 0.25 ppm) over the last six months, I'm rethinking my approach toward tank pollutants.

Approx. five months ago, I bought an established 75g tank from an enthusiast who was moving out of the city. He decided to clean the sandbed (mistake!) while I moved the tank, which then went through a minicycle as bacteria became re-established in the LS. I lost a cleaner shrimp at this time, and noted symptoms of what I associated with ich -- rapid gilling, fish at the top of the tank, and attraction to outflows -- despite adding no new additions to the tank. Ammonia tested at 0, but nitrite was over 2.0 ppm. The percs and sixline wrasse survived the incident.

Two months ago, I bought a yellow tang to help with algae control. The guy seemed fine after a 4 week QT period (he had lived in a tank all by himself, with coral frags, at a LFS), and I placed him in my display. The next day, my shrivelled xenia alerted me to the fact that something was wrong, but tang had disappeared and I couldn't find him. I did a 50% water change and added an additive to bring down ammonia (as a preventative; it tested at 0.1-0.2), and went to work. When I came home from work, I found my coral beauty and the sixline dead, with other fish (damsels and percs) clearly in distress with symptoms as noted above. Ammonia tested at 0, but nitrite was at 1.0-1.2 ppm.

The only conclusions that I can reach from my experience is that 1) I had an ammonia spike on both occasions, but my testing kit was faulty (it did register a cycle in my QT tank, though, so I ruled that one out), 2) the the LR converted ammonia to nitrite before I could test for it, but long enough for damage to have been done, or 3) a small ammonia spike (0.25-0.5 ppm) triggered a small nitrite spike (1-2 ppm), and killed fish susceptible to nitrite poisoning (e.g. angels, butterflies), which will die in the presence of small amounts of this toxin. I'm therefore not convinced that small amounts of nitrite are as innocuous to all reef inhabitants as they have been made out to be.

One final note: I had an anenome fish in my QT while it was cycling (no choice; was being beat up). Fish exhibited no signs of of physical stress during the noted ammonia spike, which registered upward of 1.5 ppm when tested (fish was quickly moved out when sample indicated problem); it did, however, exhibit rapid gilling (and was lying on its side at the bottom of the tank) during more recent 1-1.5 ppm nitrite reading in my display.

 

[Philwd]

An update. After I read 0 NH3 last night I saved a water sample and took it into my LFS today. Well guess what. NH3 .5ppm NO2 .25-.5 ppm. The tank has been cycling. You guys were all right. At least I now know what the problem was. I bought a new NH3 test kit today and won't repeat that mistake.

Thanks everyone for chiming in. Bad test kit GGGRRR....