Why do I need / want a Refugium?

[Patrick Cox]

Today the owner of my LFS came to my house to look at my tank and we discussed a couple of interesting points that I would love to hear what some of you think.

1. He said he does not recommend using a refugium. He said that eventually a refugium will accumulate so much waste that you will have a large ammonia spike / cycle that could kill your livestock. He uses bioballs in all of his sumps because he says they do a very good job of oxygenating the water and he believes this is important.

2. I told him that I read on the forums that a refugium with macro algae will consume nitrates, which will help reduce algae in your tank and he doesn't believe that high nitrates in and of themselves is bad for a tank. He has a beautiful reef tank in his shopt that has nitrate levels of 400 with no ill effects to any of the livestock or corals. So if your reason for having a refugium is to reduce nitrates, he doesn't believe this is necessary.

So, let's hear what everyone has to say!

Thanks,
Pat

 

[Wolverine]

Today the owner of my LFS came to my house to look at my tank and we discussed a couple of interesting points that I would love to hear what some of you think.

1. He said he does not recommend using a refugium. He said that eventually a refugium will accumulate so much waste that you will have a large ammonia spike / cycle that could kill your livestock. He uses bioballs in all of his sumps because he says they do a very good job of oxygenating the water and he believes this is important.

2. I told him that I read on the forums that a refugium with macro algae will consume nitrates, which will help reduce algae in your tank and he doesn't believe that high nitrates in and of themselves is bad for a tank. He has a beautiful reef tank in his shopt that has nitrate levels of 400 with no ill effects to any of the livestock or corals. So if your reason for having a refugium is to reduce nitrates, he doesn't believe this is necessary.

You definitely don't need a refugium, but they're nice to have for several reasons, such as supplying a steady, protected supply of microfauna (copepods, amphipods, etc); if designed right, with macroalgae, and or deep sand, they can also reduce nitrates (not to get into a DSB argument here ).

Bioballs, IMO, are terrible. sk8r has several threads in here about them. They're nitrate factories, as evidenced by that store's tank. Some corals are relatively resistant to high nitrates, and having not seen the tank, I don't know what's in there. Many corals do not do well with high nitrates.
How he things the bioballs on their own oxygenate is beyond me.

As for his argument against a refugium, that doesn't really make any sense. I suppose it would be possible if you completely neglected it for years, but I've never seen that happen.

 

[Angel*Fish]

Even if all things were equal (and they're not), I'd rather have a refugium. A refugium is more fun. I know this is messy, but I loved it - my first refugium:
I don't seem to have a pic of my 30g fuge. There are so many things you can do with a refugium- it's like a second tank.

 

[gtaylor67]

I agree with the above post. Bio-balls are not my preferred way to go either. I could not imagine 400 on nitrates. This could not be good. If you will look in most of the reef keeping books available you will notice for some reason that most if not all suggest 10 or less on nitrates.Zero would be best. I have issues at time with mine but I prefer fat happy fish. LOL As do most....But I would guess you will get plenty of suggestions. I've had my fuge up for 3 yrs. now and no nitrate or ammonia spikes. Maybe you should see if there is another store in your area that will help with your decision. There is always more than one way...Good Luck

 

[Patrick Cox]

What should be done in terms of maintenance for a fuge? Thanks!

 

[cloak]

You shouldn't need a refuge IMO. I'm pretty sure were all trying to avoid algae growth, no? As far as the "bugs" are concerned, there great, don't get me wrong, but if they did happen to fall of the face of the earth tomorrow, it wouldnt hinder me from keeping a successful reef aquarium. I would much rather have all that fauna in my DT anyways. Getting it done in 4 moves is always better than 5. Like chess.

JMO.

 

[Patrick Cox]

You shouldn't need a refuge IMO. I'm pretty sure were all trying to avoid algae growth, no? As far as the "bugs" are concerned, there great, don't get me wrong, but if they did happen to fall of the face of the earth tomorrow, it wouldnt hinder me from keeping a successful reef aquarium. I would much rather have all that fauna in my DT anyways. Getting it done in 4 moves is always better than 5. Like chess.

JMO.

Yes, he suggested I add copopods to my DT. (I am not sure what those are though. )

 

[cloak]

http://www.xtalworld.com/Aquarium/hitchfaq.htm

 

[laud]

I don't need a garden in my yard, but I have one to enrich my life. I think a refugium is the same. I am not a marine biologist, or a botonist, but I think plant life feeds on our organic waste while it's waste is beneficial to our supply of oxygen and other needs. Yin and yang, baby!

It adds life which has positives and negatives, like everything.

 

[Gold Stripe]

I don't need a garden in my yard, but I have one to enrich my life. I think a refugium is the same. I am not a marine biologist, or a botonist, but I think plant life feeds on our organic waste while it's waste is beneficial to our supply of oxygen and other needs. Yin and yang, baby!

It adds life which has positives and negatives, like everything.

+1

You dont "need" live rock, but it helps. You dont "need" a skimmer, but it helps. You dont "need" lots of things but if you want to create a truely balanced ecosystem then you have to attempt to mirror nature as much as possible given the constraints of a small glass box.

 

[Frogmanx82]

I wouldn't trust a guy who is still on bio balls and has 400 ppm nitrates. His tank can't be healthy even if he has managed to get stuff to live in their own waste.

 

[Patrick Cox]

I wouldn't trust a guy who is still on bio balls and has 400 ppm nitrates. His tank can't be healthy even if he has managed to get stuff to live in their own waste.

This guy has 3 or 4 large reef tanks in his shop that are absolutely beautiful. They seem to be healthy and full of life and underneath those tanks are sumps with bioballs and protein skimmers. So you say don't trust him but I don't know how to refute the results I am seeing in those tanks.

Can you tell me what is bad about high nitrates? And why else would you not recommend bio balls? (BTW, he has lots of live rock in the tank as well.) I believe the main purpose of the bio balls for him is that when the water falls from the tank into the bio balls, he was indicating that this water movement oxygenates the water and this is beneficial. But, I am going to run by his shop today to get some more info.

Thanks,
Pat

 

[jeff@zina.com]

Can you tell me what is bad about high nitrates? And why else would you not recommend bio balls?

High nitrates are detrimental to corals, especially SPS corals. Bio Balls need to be rinsed during water changes to ensure that no detritus builds up and they need prefilters to trap larger debris. Just more maintenance to do, along with larger/more frequent water changes to export nitrates.

Jeff

 

[Frogmanx82]

Bio Balls are supposed to offer a place for denitrifying bacteria to break down ammonia into nitrates. The fact is live rock does a much better job of this because nitrates trapped in the rock can also be converted into nitrogen and so the cycle is completed. So Bio Balls add nothing but increased nitrates to tanks that have sufficient live rock to handle the bio load themselves.

Read just about any recommendation for livestock, especially corals, and you will see elevated nitrates are a problem. 40 ppm is high, 400 is ridiculous. I'd like to see a picture of these tanks. No reputable person in this hobby would recommend allowing nitrates to go that high.

 

[curry76]

This guy has 3 or 4 large reef tanks in his shop that are absolutely beautiful. They seem to be healthy and full of life ...

... So you say don't trust him but I don't know how to refute the results I am seeing in those tanks.

Refute the results? It doesn't matter. Like many have said, We don't know what corals he has in those tanks and for how long they stay there.


BUT, to the bigger point:

Just because ONE guy has a tank(s) that are set up that way, DOES NOT mean that the thousands of tanks set up according to the general consensus/accepted method of keeping reef tanks are wrong or are unnecessary.

Secondly, it also DOES NOT mean that his setups which directly go against the 'norm,' are, in any way, a model for someone starting a reef tank of their own.

Follow the advice of thousands, not the advice of just one. Especially not the advice of just one who in the end will be looking to sell you something!

 

[Wolverine]

You shouldn't need a refuge IMO. I'm pretty sure were all trying to avoid algae growth, no? As far as the "bugs" are concerned, there great, don't get me wrong, but if they did happen to fall of the face of the earth tomorrow, it wouldnt hinder me from keeping a successful reef aquarium. I would much rather have all that fauna in my DT anyways. Getting it done in 4 moves is always better than 5.

Some fish and other animals need those "bugs". If you have enough of them, they can wipe out the populations in the display tank, and then work on starving to death. Having a fuge with the bugs gives the tank a protected supply that will spill back into the DT.

 

[Wolverine]

This guy has 3 or 4 large reef tanks in his shop that are absolutely beautiful. They seem to be healthy and full of life and underneath those tanks are sumps with bioballs and protein skimmers. So you say don't trust him but I don't know how to refute the results I am seeing in those tanks.

Can you tell me what is bad about high nitrates? And why else would you not recommend bio balls? (BTW, he has lots of live rock in the tank as well.) I believe the main purpose of the bio balls for him is that when the water falls from the tank into the bio balls, he was indicating that this water movement oxygenates the water and this is beneficial. But, I am going to run by his shop today to get some more info.

As noted above, in at least two posts, some corals are relatively resistant to high nitrates, and we don't know what's in those tanks. Some animals do horrifically with high nitrates.
There are lots of ways to oxygenate the water without adding tons of nitrates.

I've also seen some tanks with high nitrates and corals that are doing fine that normally wouldn't do well with high nitrates. These are biological systems; it happens. However, I don't think it's a good idea to make your decisions based on the exceptions rather than the rules, especially when you're starting out.

Some stores have fairly high turnover. They might put the biggest, nicest things in the display, but those can be there for variable lengths of time before they either die or are sold, so I also don't know how long those corals have been in there.

We don't trust him based on the advice he's giving you, not based on what his tanks look like.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Thanks all for input. Can someone tell me how long refugiums have been in favor for reef aquariums and what was used before refugiums were "invented?" It is my understanding, but I could be wrong, that refugiums are "relatively" new to reef aquariums.

Also, I don't understand why bio balls create an environment that produces nitrates. If the water is prefiltered before entering the bioballs, why are these any different than bacteria accumulating on LR?

Finally, it does make sense to me that water flowing through bio balls or live rock rubble or whatever will be well oxygenated and it is my understanding that this is desirable for any tank.

I also believe that one objective in maintaining a reef aquarium is to maintain a high level of water flow throughout the tank. Are well designed refugiums supposed to have the same water circulation?

Thanks again.

 

[laud]

Patrick, can you get some pictures of his tanks? I'd really be interested to see what kind of corals he's keeping with those kind of Nitrates.

Also, just to note, I've seen 3 different LFS's using MH, T5 and VHO. All three have very successful coral systems. Many different styles work. I personally have a very minimalistic setup that does quite well.

 

[edsreef]

I wouldn't trust a guy who is still on bio balls and has 400 ppm nitrates. His tank can't be healthy even if he has managed to get stuff to live in their own waste.