skinnyjoe1976
New member
please move tread here
will a wc clown host better or will a tank raised one will?
- Thread starter skinnyjoe1976
- Start date
teog
New member
Good call skinny joe-but it looks like it was moved to
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1085052
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1085052
cschweitzer
New member
Sorry, just saw this thread...posted in the other thread...besides, it's just free bumps for gwrench. If anyone has one, I'm sure they'll PM him
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teog
New member
Poor guy just wanted a RBTA..lol
I would like to see some substantiated info from ORA are another larger breeder to see if they have any studies on the matter. Until them Im not sold on the idea of TB clowns are less likely to host an anenome than a WC clownfish. Since all the TBs Ive owned have hosted. My I just have the magic touch..hahaha
And to make things intersting too, I bought a pair of true percs from reef works about 1.5 months ago on their grand opening who wont host in anything. They swim in the middle of the tank during the day and hide in a corner at night with nothing by them. They have yet to touch the RBTA I put in there for them. Maybe I should throw in one of the TB's and show them how its done.lol
I would like to see some substantiated info from ORA are another larger breeder to see if they have any studies on the matter. Until them Im not sold on the idea of TB clowns are less likely to host an anenome than a WC clownfish. Since all the TBs Ive owned have hosted. My I just have the magic touch..hahaha
And to make things intersting too, I bought a pair of true percs from reef works about 1.5 months ago on their grand opening who wont host in anything. They swim in the middle of the tank during the day and hide in a corner at night with nothing by them. They have yet to touch the RBTA I put in there for them. Maybe I should throw in one of the TB's and show them how its done.lol
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Mr Neutron
Aquarium Cleaner-Upper
Just a FYI, percs and false percs don't naturally host with entacmaea quadricolor (bubble tips). I'm also doubtful that tb clowns won't host. Llike any wild animal you can't just remove behaviour that's imbeded in their genes.
cschweitzer
New member
And reefworks pair was WC? Where were they collected?
All of mine are now hosting in different things except one picasso. Funny thing is that one of my picassos never hosted, went into a tank with a hosting clown, and now hosts. All of my TB clowns have "learned" the "hosting" behavior from other WC clowns...
All of mine are now hosting in different things except one picasso. Funny thing is that one of my picassos never hosted, went into a tank with a hosting clown, and now hosts. All of my TB clowns have "learned" the "hosting" behavior from other WC clowns...
cschweitzer
New member
Everything you stated here is correct and I don't think anyone disagrees.
Only thing I may contrast is the last statement.
What about breaking a wild horse?
House breaking a dog? Or crate training? Dogs were once wolves that ate humans...
What about lion tamers and big cat owners?
What about ferrets(close to my heart)? They were originally bred to ferret out rodents...mine would be afraid of them.
What about seals bouncing a ball on their nose?
Dolphins pushing people with their noses?
Those behaviors are trained behaviors. They get rewarded for good, reprimanded for the bad. Just like humans and rehabilitation. In fact, I would say that everything we do is learned and that instinctual is learned through copying, repetition, and the need for survival. Instincts are altered every day. Needs and instincts are very different in my opinion.
You need food, you need water, it is not your instinct to eat or drink. You need mating for repoduction of your species, you do not need a home to live in.
cschweitzer
New member
The problem is that we don't adapt to nature like most every other animal(besides beavers), we adapt nature to us. Once a fish is caught for the purpose of observation(as we do in our tanks) natural must be thrown out the window.
We and beavers make the world work around us. Evolution is now less based on the earth and more on what humans will force upon every other species...clowns in captivity are much more likely to have different attitudes than WC's. Just as WC's are more suceptable to having disease or getting stressed in a fish tank. Their not used to us making them adapt around our whims.
We and beavers make the world work around us. Evolution is now less based on the earth and more on what humans will force upon every other species...clowns in captivity are much more likely to have different attitudes than WC's. Just as WC's are more suceptable to having disease or getting stressed in a fish tank. Their not used to us making them adapt around our whims.
55semireef
Moved On
You got some concepts mixed up in your statements. There is a big difference between training a animal to do something and breeding an animal to lose a characteristic or gain one.
Dogs are still like wolves very much. They still have the instinct to go into packs, still have the instinct to bark or make some kind of noise when they feel threatened or want attention. Dogs still have a very good sense of smell and hearing just like wolves do. However, what seperates the two animals is that dogs are domesticated now. They have been bred over hundreds of years to lose some traits and gain others. For instance, they are friendly and are much smaller. They are related to the wolf but are also completely different. It took selective breeding to have dogs become mans best friend. Not to mention, when you say wolves killed humans, so have dogs. There are many attacks of dogs on humans as you know. It all goes back to instinct.
Again, you can't compare a house cat to the king of the jungle. They are related but seperated by hundreds of thousands of generations if not millions. BTW, there is no such thing as a tamed lion. Yes there are trained ones which will perform certain acts (motivated by food) but there have been many cases where a "tamed lion" all of a sudden reacts to a certain behavior that a human does and then instinct takes over. They attack the trainer. You cannot train a lion to lose its instincts.
Hopefully I have made my point. Sure animals can be trained to do certain tricks or behaviors but they still have their instincts. They are animals. Dolphins have been known to attack humans and even kill them. And yes, trained dolphins.
now what do these topics have anything to do with clownfish may I ask? A WC is just as likely to host an anemone as a TB. They will to host an anemone is based on purley instincts. Unless evolution is happening right before our eyes, clownfish will not lose that instinct to host anemones.
cschweitzer
New member
House cats are considered the biggest hunter or all cats. Per capita, they kill more animals than any other cats. they have the widest range of prey, they use animals as toys.
This is not my personal view, it was on discovery channel's 10 most deadly cats...But most of these cats are not "domesticated" like we do with most animals...the best cat hunters are the outdoor cats.
The question is not whether a dog can still smell as well, because I am not arguing that the clownfish's natural immunity to anems is altered, just its behavior to them...
This is not my personal view, it was on discovery channel's 10 most deadly cats...But most of these cats are not "domesticated" like we do with most animals...the best cat hunters are the outdoor cats.
The question is not whether a dog can still smell as well, because I am not arguing that the clownfish's natural immunity to anems is altered, just its behavior to them...
cschweitzer
New member
You are really just arguing semantics, because instincts(in the wild) determine an animals behavior in situations that arise. In captivity, these behaviors change or are forcibly altered. By changing these behaviors manually, this will inevitably change the child's instincts. Senses are not instincts...sense of smell, sense of sight...not instincts.
instinct
1 A natural aptitude
2 A largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
So based on the environment given in the wild, its instinct is to find and live in an anemone. Its "instinct" in our tanks is completely different. Instincts change based on environment and the stimuli or said environment. As environment is altered, so are "instincts"
instinct
1 A natural aptitude
2 A largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
So based on the environment given in the wild, its instinct is to find and live in an anemone. Its "instinct" in our tanks is completely different. Instincts change based on environment and the stimuli or said environment. As environment is altered, so are "instincts"
cschweitzer
New member
Aren't most animals acts trained by food? That's how lions got their instinct to kill and be considered dangerous in the first place...
Also when I said big cat, I meant panthers, leopards, cheetahs, as many south FL eccentrics own...they are legal as pets here in FL.
What about my question on ferrets? the black footed ferret(endangered) in the wild will hunt animals of the family of rodents, but my ferrets are scared of mice. In fact any wild ferret in the mustalid family will do so. My ferrets will not eat raw meat when I give it to them, but they love yogurt snacks. My ferrets don't touch bones, but they'll gnaw on a greenie(the dog chews). In fact, it has been proven that domesticated ferret released back in the wild will most of the time die within the first week.
Same with many animals released back in the wild...shouldn't instincts defined by your defense just kick back in? Why do so few domesticated animals not survive when placed back in the wild?
Also when I said big cat, I meant panthers, leopards, cheetahs, as many south FL eccentrics own...they are legal as pets here in FL.
What about my question on ferrets? the black footed ferret(endangered) in the wild will hunt animals of the family of rodents, but my ferrets are scared of mice. In fact any wild ferret in the mustalid family will do so. My ferrets will not eat raw meat when I give it to them, but they love yogurt snacks. My ferrets don't touch bones, but they'll gnaw on a greenie(the dog chews). In fact, it has been proven that domesticated ferret released back in the wild will most of the time die within the first week.
Same with many animals released back in the wild...shouldn't instincts defined by your defense just kick back in? Why do so few domesticated animals not survive when placed back in the wild?
teog
New member
I have never trained dolphins, lions, bevers, ferrets or any other animal you brought up(except dogs, I trained schutzhund for many yrs). But it sounds like you have. So you should know instinct and behavior are two different things. Just ask Roy from "Siegfried and Roy." They thought they trained/modified the behavior of the tiger, but his true INSTINCT came out. Trained animal attacks happen frequently. Good thing my untrained clown doesnt bite like a tiger.lol
Many TB clowns who have never seen an anenome from birth, some how know what to do with it once its introduced. This is not a learned behavior, its part of its natural instinct.
Like I said prior give me real facts from a reputable fish farms and
not just your opinion because you feel people shoud listen to you. Until then Im done.
Many TB clowns who have never seen an anenome from birth, some how know what to do with it once its introduced. This is not a learned behavior, its part of its natural instinct.
Like I said prior give me real facts from a reputable fish farms and
not just your opinion because you feel people shoud listen to you. Until then Im done.
55semireef
Moved On
Who made this statement and care to explain yourself?
55semireef
Moved On
Yes apparently you watched the Most Extreme and saw the house cat as one of the deadly cats. I never aruged how deadly a house cat was or its behavior did I? All I said was you can't compare a house cat to a lion. Yes house cats have that strong instinct to kill and go hunting. Its in their genetics.
I know the difference between the two. No need to get the definitions. I never said instincts were the same thing as senses of smell nor did I get them confused.
Did I ever include the word instinct in that phrase? No I did not. Since you didn't understand what I exactly said, let me reword it. Dogs after many years of seperation between the wolf still retain their strong instincts and senses of smell. These characteristics that dogs have have not been lossed even through domestication. However, dogs have lost that wild animal type behavior and their agression. Dogs have been along side of humans for hundreds of years and have been puposely bred to accomodate man and to be "man's best friend."
I am not going to try and debate your situation with your ferret as I know nothing about them.
I am sorry but you can't alter an instinct. Since you disagree, can you provide an accuate reference and a good example? I would be interested.
teog
New member
55semireef- Since you ask here is the link to the orignal thread. Happy reading..lol
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083738
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083738
55semireef
Moved On
That's a funny statement. ^^^:lol: :lol:
teog, I completely agree with you on that link. TB clowns have that same strong instinct to host anemones as WC clowns. For heaven sakes, I bought two Clarkiis from PETCO (yes PETCO!!!) and soon as they went in the tank, both of them dove into the blue Haddoni immediately. There was no hesitation whatsoever. And cschweitzer calls that non-instinctual? lol. Whatever...
I am done with this thread.
Me No Nemo
Premium Member
Pictured are snowflake clowns, tank bred in England. These pics were taken within 5 hours of being placed in a tank with an anemone. They hosted almost immediately. My experience leads me to believe that it is instinctual for them to find a home that will afford a safe haven. Even when hosting toadstools, they often dive below them when approached. My two true percs...one WC and one TB, will always host something...but if an anemone is present, they will host that before all else. I do think, for the most part, WC host anemones somewhat more readily, but perhaps because they recognize the anemone from previous experience? With TB, it seems they kinda stumble on it one day and then instinct kicks in and draws them to it.
