worried about flame hawkfish

[m3rcury]

ok, so i had a problem in my reef tank and moved my flame hawkfish into a different salt tank. the problem in the reef tank was resolved in a week and i moved him back in. since he has been back in the reef tank, he has developed some discoloration. there appears to be large parts of his body that are a kind of cloudy white. he looks faded. there is no evidence of ick spots and nothing obviously wrong with his scales. just the cloudy white faded appearance.

he is eating aggressively and when he eats, he brightens up some. he isn't breathing super hard, but does tend to stay in one place a bit more than usual.

normally i would just think this is stress. but, he also appears to be scratching on the sand or rocks every now and then. that is what has me worried. there is also a coral beauty in the tank and that fish has no signs at all of any kind of illness.

i am new to saltwater and given the cost of fish, i get a bit paranoid. do i have anything to worry about here? what should i be doing?

btw, there is just one small rock with some polyps and mushrooms on it. it is a new reef tank that just have live rocks, coral beauty, clean up crew, and one small rock with some softies on it.

thanks in advance !!!!

 

[leebca]

Not much to go on. A photo might help us.

Additional info that might be helpful:
How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What kind of system do you have (tank volume, dimensions, bio-filtration method, the equipment you use, any carbon or other chemical filtration, kind of substrate, etc.).
If you have a refugium and/or sump, what is living in it?
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
You say it's eating. . .Exactly what foods you use and feeding schedules? Was it eating all along, including the move the other tank?
How long have you had this fish?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, Silica, Ca, Alk., and any others you have)
Water parameters ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths; dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; colored patches on rock or substrate; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often). Kind of artificial salt youââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢re using. Kind of source water you are using? Have you analyzed your source water for the above chemistries? When did you do these tests last? What is the TDS of your source water?
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

The fish seems to be irritated by something. Since you see no signs of disease this would increase the probability that there is something not quite to its liking in the water. We can't test for everything, so it might be just something you haven't tested for, or something you haven't been watching closely.

:rollface:

 

[m3rcury]

ok, i'll start checking this stuff and posting the results.

with regard to the photo, i didn't provide one because i haven't figured out how to get the color right in the photos i take. so, i wasn't sure that i would be able to get a photo that accurately represents the discoloration about which i'm talking.

 

[m3rcury]

actually, now that i think about it, i wonder if it is something in my tap water.

it is a 40 gallon breeder with 60# of live rock. i took the fish out initally because my tank had a mini cycle due to the addition of some live rock and i wasn't sure how high the NH would go. i've had the fish for about 3 weeks. anyhow, since i was worried about how severe the mini-cycle would be, i put the fish in a temporary holding tank.

once i got him back in the main tank, i topped off the tank with about 4-5 gallons of tap water + instant ocean. i was out of RO water that I usually use in my tanks, but needed to top off the tank because the i couldn't lower the skimmer intake any further. it was after adding the tap water that i started to see signs of distress. i got some fresh RO last night, i'lll do a 10 gallon water change when i get home. maybe that will help.

i'll start posting the other parameters tonight.

 

[leebca]

I would suggest doing a 30%+ water change, under the circumstances.

Unless you've previously actually acquired the typical analysis of your tap water AND have done regular/recent analysis of the water AND found/find everything suitable for a marine tank, then I would avoid using it. I don't know of any tap water I'd trust for a reef tank and only a couple I'd use for a FO tank.

 

[m3rcury]

after spending most of last night doing water tests and a water change, i think i pinned down the problem to very high nitrate levels. i changed 10 gallons in the 40 gallon tank last night, but when i rechecked the nitrate level in the tank, it was still around 50.

so, i plan on changing another 15 gallons tonight (i only had 10 gallons of RO available last night). is this the correct course of action?

also, i checked the RO + salt that i used last night. i tested NH, nitrate, KH, PH, PHO, and SG. everything was good (NH = 0, nitrate = 0, KH around 10 i think, PH = 8.1, PHO = 0, SG = 1.025). so, i know the nitrates are in the tank, not from the water change.

i'm worried about the source of the nitrates because i just did a 25% water change last week. the nitrates yesterday before the water change were close to the top of the scale. so, i'm worried about what is causing this high level of nitrates.

one possible source is the tap water + salt i used to top off the tank. but, what might be other sources? i have a penguin 300 gph powerhead, a bakpak 2 protein skimmer (with biobale removed), a bubble trap that has a sponge in the bottom of the trap (i wash this in tap water weekly), and a 250w MH lamp. right now there are approximately 15 hermit crabs, a sea cucumber, 9 turbo snails, a small banded sea star, a small coral beauty, the hawkfish, and a .3 pound rock with some polyps and mushrooms on it.

the bakpak appears to have some algea growth on it (not much, just like the kind of brown algea that would grow on the glass of the tank). other than cleaning that, i'm not sure where else to look for the source of the nitrates. could the elevated nitrates be from the mini cycle my tank just finished after the additional of live rock?

thanks so much for your help. it is fantastic as someone new to this hobby to have the help from experienced reefkeepers.

 

[leebca]

Signs of 'brown algae' are signs of water quality issues. This shows signs of it being a relatively young tank (less than 8 months old) not yet having 'stabilized,' or a tank not maintained for good water quality.

A less likely but possible source of nitrates is the salt you're using. If you're concerned about your salt, then test the made up water you use for nitrates and phosphates. Since you have the 'brown algae' you should be checking for silica, also (source water, salt water, tank water). If the salt water and/or source water shows signs of silica and your tank shows no signs of silica, then there is a chance you have some diatom growth in your tank. They need a source of silica to survive well.

If you make a 10g change on a system containing 40g then you done a 25% water change. That should cut your readings by about 25% immediately. Another 15g water change is a good idea. Make sure to test before and after change tank water.

How's the fish doing? Any better looking? Any interest in foods? You might try some live foods.

Nitrates aren't usually a problem for most fishes. If you have adequate live rock for your aquarium, your nitrates should be low. This assumes you truly have live rock. True live rock should help control the nitrates. You might want to consider either a chemical filter for the nitrates, or to set up a sump to grow macro algae to export the nitrates.

I'd suggest no longer washing out the trap sponge in tap water. Rinse it in used aquarium water you replaced during a water change. Then, discard that wash/rinse water.

 

[m3rcury]

all of these are great suggestions. it is a new tank - about a month old. i have detailed some problems that i have had with it in another thread, but i moved everything into this tank from a smaller cycled tank. the live rock is about 3 weeks old and was taken from another guy's tank. it had been in his tank for over a year.

as i said in the original post, the fish is agressively eating. i was just worried about the discoloration i saw. the coral beauty has no signs of stress or discoloration at all.

thanks again for your help with this !!!

 

[leebca]

I think things will settle down if you give them enough time. You're rushing into the setup too quickly. Give the tank another 4 months to settle down. When you no longer see the growth of that brown algae, then you can consider making a change in the population/inhabitants of the tank.

 

[m3rcury]

yes, i am learning that i tend to move too quickly :-( everything is just so pretty though.

anyway, i am hopeful things will settle down and i will be waiting a long time before adding anything new to the tank. get some exerpeince under my belt of keep the water parameters constant.

thanks again lee.

 

[m3rcury]

with the 15 gallon water change i did tonight, the nitrate is now down to 20 ppm (according to aquarium pharamceutals test kit).

should i continue doing water changes every day, or let the tank chill for a week or so?

the water i'm adding tests 0 for nitrates before i do the water change. i did cut the nitrate level in about half (it was somewhere around 40ppm before the 15g water change).

thanks lee, i appreciate the help. i'm trying to get all this stuff figured out.

my LFS doesn't use a DI. i called them all and none of them do (claiming it isn't need in this city). so, as soon as i get paid on the first, i'm going to buy a RO/DI unit. maybe it works for them, but i don't want to take the chance of introducing contaminents.

btw, sorry for all the spelling mistakes. i stink at spelling :/

 

[m3rcury]

some good news. looks like after the 10g and 15g water changes, that the flame hawk is about 80% better. there is still some discoloration at times, but he was exhibiting very bright and vibrant reds this morning. i'm hoping he will continue to improve.

with the nitrate at 20ppm, i'm still wondering if i should do more water changes. any input would be appreciated.

 

[leebca]

My suggestion for making a large water change wasn't so much for a nitrate concern. Remember that fishes aren't too much affected by nitrate levels. Nitrate levels can and do affect different inverts, however.

My suggested water changes was to possibly remove anything in the water that came through which might have had a negative impact on your hawk. When you're not sure, or unsure about what is wrong and you suspect it might be a water issue, the best approach is generally to perform a water change. A water change can cure many ills.

But what is most important is to try and get to the heart of the problem. The water change is the short term fix, not necessarily a long-term cure. Like I previously mentioned, we don't check our water for the hundreds of other things that can be wrong for the marine aquarium. Use the best water; the best mixing techniques; and avoid all sources of possible contamination of the your new water and the tank water.

So if we say that the problem was with your source water and you are improving your source water quality, then I would perform one more large water change. After that, return to your normal routine and keep an eye on things.

I know it will be hard to resist the beautiful marine specimens, but give things time to settle! I'm guilty of the same temptation! (Sometimes knowing better doesn't mean much)

You're welcome. Don't worry about spelling errors. So long as I/we can understand what you write. It is usually only is important with some words like "nitrite" and "nitrate" where spelling can mean something entirely different.

 

[m3rcury]

right on lee. thanks so much for the help. i am hopeful that one day in the future, i may be able to return the favor.

THANK YOU

 

[m3rcury]

ok, the fish got better for about 4 days, not it isn't doing too well again. still eating OK, still behaving normal. but, the color is very faded. it looks like the scales are flaky and he has some darker red patches where he seems to have scrapped some scales off while scratching (i think).

it seems apparent that he is stressed, but i can't figure out why.

i checked NH, nitrate, PO, KH, Ca, and PH tonight and everything was acceptable:

NH <.25
PO 0
KH 10
nitrate ~30
PH 8.1
temp 78
SG 1.026
Ca 150

So, i took off my skimmer and completely cleaned it (with just regular water - no soap obviously). I thoroughly rinsed the sponge that is in my bubble trap. I did a 10 gallon water change (last water change was 5 days ago). I vacuumed the sand when i did the water change.

I'm at a loss of what to do.

Here are a couple of BAD pics.

The darker area circled with yellow are the patches where the scales appear to have been scrapped off.

any ideas of what to do?

thanks !!!!

 

[m3rcury]

btw, the red color is WAY too vibrant in those pics. the fish is much more faded than what it appears in the picture.

 

[leebca]

When I saw the photos I thought, 'm3rcury is worrying about color fade?'

The best next step, considering the new symptom of scale loss, is to treat for a bacterial infection. The fish will need to be moved to a hospital tank and treated with an antibiotic. A medicine containing NITROFURAZONE (in the product, Furan-2) would be my suggested choice.

But a fish with a bacterial infection is often the result of something else going/being wrong. That is, the bacterial infection is indicative of another problem.

The possible 'problems' could be any one or a combination of any of the following:
Water quality
Environment
Deficient diet without supplements
Decaying matter in the system
etc.

You're back to your tank quality/conditions. The positive response you got from the fish when you did the water changes seems to support that there is something going on in your aquarium that is driving the fish to its susceptibility to infection. The fish can be treated and made well, but unless you've resolved what is causing the fish to weaken and become susceptible to bacterial infections, this will likely repeat itself.

Proceed to treat your fish BUT also do a point-by-point review of your system. During treatment, provide the fish extra good foods and supplements, along with beta glucan as recommended in this post:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

 

[m3rcury]

will do. is it common for an infection to only strike one fish in the tank?

as i have said before, i have a coral beauty in this tank that appears to be completely ignorant of whatever is upsetting the flame.

 

[m3rcury]

hmm, i think i'm going to need some help with the details of setting up a hospital tank.

would a 10gallon + a filter and heater be enough? obviously i would need to do water changes every 3 days or so since it would be a "new" tank.

 

[leebca]

A hospital tank is very similar to a quarantine tank. Some good pointers can be found in this article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.htm

10g should be good enough. Without an active biofilter, you'll find you'll be doing daily (if not twice per day) water changes. Control pH and make sure you match the new water with the old.

Each fish within a species and each species has their own tolerance to tank conditions and their own resistance to disease. The use/addition of beta glucan to the food for this fish will improve its natural immunity and defenses. Having said this, I have seen fish that should have done well, succumb to things they shouldn't have.

Keep an eye on your CB and all other marine life.