Would this be enough to go skimmerless?

[elder luis]

Tim

You told and showed me some reasons for not keeping a skimmer into a clam system and now I agree with you, but I have a question:

What do you think about home simple and standard systems? Not for keeping or spawning clams, just to keep you nems and some corals. Do you think a skimmer is necessary? Why?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This issue with refractory organics is another fascinating aspect of what is going on in reef systems. (One question that immediately comes to mind is whether this is happening faster or slower in our aquariums than in nature.) I would be very interested in seeing any references or research showing these refractory organics are primarily or exclusively hydrophilic or that these refractory organics compounds make up a significant percentage of the TOC either in aquariums or on reefs. Because I don't understand how this fit's into this discussion if these refractory organics can be divided into subgroups that will be removed by skimming and will not be removed by skimming.
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My refractory organics comment relates to the idea and evidence that it really happens in the ocean, not that the actual refractory organics in the ocean (which remain because they cannot be metabolized) and those in a skimmed reef (which remain because they cannot be skimmed) would be the same.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have always taken large bacterial poplulations as one possible cause of cloudy water but you didn't say how you determened this was indicative of microbial populations comprable to a reef in the open ocean. What role does size of the microbe play? Is there an easy, reliable method to determin microbial density? Because one frustration I have with Feldman's work is there is no practicle way I can determine microbial species or populations in my systems to evaluate them.

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There's no doubt in my mind that the haziness was bacteria in this case, and the ocean is never that hazy that I have ever seen in person or in any video.

One could sample the water, break up the large aggregates and count them in various ways, but I've never seen any data which sampled density in a reef bacterial bloom situation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am also very curious to see how further research on this will fit in with Feldmans study showing the majority of skimmate was inorganic compounds http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature

The inorganics, in addition to simply being salt water, are likely largely from calcium carbonate and silica from diatoms and other organisms with internal skeletons that are skimmed out.

One interesting description of the use of simple natural systems is Robert Perrin's description of the systems his aquaculture company Tropicorum used in the June/July 2005 issue of "Coral". Tropicorum discontinued the use of pumps, protien skimmers, kalkwasser and calcium reactors and goes on to say "We have not added any calcium chloride recently". (I will point out elsewhere in the article he states they add Caribsea's Aragamight daily.)

FWIW, Aragamight won't dissolve in seawater unless the pH is quite low, so I don't believe that it alone can supply calcium and alkalinity to rapidly growing hard corals. If you have a link that realistically claims otherwise, I'd be happy to read it.

 

[KCombs]

This is good reading...I for one appreciate the post and time from all the above contributors

 

[onetrickpony]

In my tank with a pretty decent skimmer (an ETS 800 gemini run by an Iwaki 55RLT), dosing large amounts of vinegar resulted in the water continually hazy with bacteria. So the skimmer alone absolutely did not cause it to have levels of bacteria only 10% of natural reefs.

Randy going off your comments about Haziness and bacterial bloom in your aquarium with carbon dosing and your protein skimmer.
As for nutrient export or locking up those nutrients in biomass.

What would you suggest for rapid uptake of bacteria in our aquariums that would rapidly consume the bloom of bacteria with carbon dosing?

Both of the photos above are from reefs on the Great Barrier Reef, Australia. The left photo shows the clear "nutrient poor" (oligotrophic) waters of the outer reefs. The right photo is of an inshore "nutrient rich" lagoon reef off Townsville. Notice how coral coverage in both systems is high, and even though the green phytoplankton-filled lagoonal reef is nutrient rich, it supports a high density of Acropora. Photos by Eric Borneman.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php

 

[Timfish]

Tim

You told and showed me some reasons for not keeping a skimmer into a clam system and now I agree with you, but I have a question:

What do you think about home simple and standard systems? Not for keeping or spawning clams, just to keep you nems and some corals. Do you think a skimmer is necessary? Why?

Lous, I failed to point out the system with the clams is a 200 gal. reef system although since it originally set up in '97 in a 100 gal tank it has mostly mushrooms and octocorals. I have not seen a need to use skimming to keep reefs. Besides the link of a filterless system in my first post in this thread here's two links to video's of other reef systems I keep without skimmers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDJQEeQXyIk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDb2JAoUUw

 

[Timfish]

There's no doubt in my mind that the haziness was bacteria in this case, and the ocean is never that hazy that I have ever seen in person or in any video.

One could sample the water, break up the large aggregates and count them in various ways, but I've never seen any data which sampled density in a reef bacterial bloom situation.

I agree it's reasonable to assume the cloudiness is due to bacteria but playing the role of doubting Thomas how do you know? Why can't it be a species of zoopankton you've cultured? Because not being able to quantify that it is bacteria causing the cloudiness it could be argued subjecting a water sample from your tank to the testing methods used by Feldman might show the same low bacteria levels in your system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy going off your comments about Haziness and bacterial bloom in your aquarium with carbon dosing and your protein skimmer.
As for nutrient export or locking up those nutrients in biomass.

What would you suggest for rapid uptake of bacteria in our aquariums that would rapidly consume the bloom of bacteria with carbon dosing?

You mean a biological uptake? Skimmers may help export it, and a UV will help get rid of a problematic bloom.

Most of us dosing organic carbon get the growth to take place in unobserved areas, like on GAC, zeolites, live rock in refugia, etc.

Thinks like sponges on live rock may take up a lot of bacteria. I know I've gotten a lot faster growth of these since starting organic carbon dosing.