Wrasse having a bad response to prazi?

[LukFox]

Okay a little history. I got a 1m/2f trio of McCosker's flasher wrasses a little over a month ago. They eat everything, look great, but the male has always breathed faster than either girls, and I was a little worried. It never got worse or better over the course of the month. I gave him a 2 minute freshwater dip a couple weeks ago and nothing fell off.

Knowing that some flukes are too small to see, I decided to get them into treatment just in case. The dip actually made him very reclusive and breathe rapidly for about 24 hours. I figured it was the stress (he got his mouth caught in the net when I went to remove him, and getting him free without hurting him was a 5 process) or maybe flukes I couldn't see.

They are in a 33 gallon long tank that for the last week has only been filled to the 20g mark because I didn't want to make 2 trips to the LFS for more RO water (previously I was using treated tap, but I had to switch for the cupramine treatment). I figured 20g would be enough anyway, and I've done it this way twice previously with perfect results.

By Sunday they were in full cupramine treatment, and all was well. On Wednesday I dosed prazipro, and the male started going downhill... He was still mostly fine on Wednesday after the prazi dose, he ate with the girls and everything, but on Thursday he only came out to quickly change hiding spots. Didn't eat. Today he didn't come out to eat either, but I saw him change his hiding spot. Physically he looks totally fine: No film, no ragged fins, clear eyes, alert to my presence, but he is breathing rapidly and is very reclusive. The girls are fine.

The QT is cycled, but I can't really test for ammonia at this point because of the cupramine. I didn't harm the filters though, and they are well established and have been running with fish for about 3 months. They are two aquaclear filters rated for 30 gallons each.

I'm confused and afraid for him . Should I discontinue the prazi treatment or let it run its course and see if he recovers?

 

[Recty]

Wrasses seem to have a harder time with copper than most.

I had a couple small wrasses at one point, I put them through a 5 minute low salinity formalin dip to kill off the flukes, I didnt try to copper them.

It's been a while, but I think I did it twice or three times because I really didnt want to get disease into my main tank or flukes and supposedly the formalin helps even with ich on the fish... although I've heard differing theories on that.

Regardless, if he is doing really badly I'd stop the copper treatment. There are two school of thought on it though, either he lives through it or not, if the copper kills him you wont get ich/flukes in the tank through him, or if he lives through the copper you wont get ich/flukes in your tank either. Personally, I'd rather the fish live and try some other type of treatment like multiple FW dips or formalin.

 

[LukFox]

He seemed to be doing just fine with the copper though. ): I started adding copper on Friday (4/9), and it wasn't until I added the prazi on Wednesday (4/14) that he started acting all weird... Could it still be the copper?

 

[LukFox]

Well this is just awesome... Now my larger female is rapidly breathing, and she's swimming around with her head slightly tilted downward. Is she in the late stages of an internal parasite problem or could this be from the meds, too? D: She was totally awesome before. Maybe prazi made the parasites act up?? Though metro is what is advised for internal parasites... Don't know why prazi would irritate internal ones. Help. :worried:

My small female is still showing no problems... *knock on wood* The male actually looks a -little- better. Not as nervous, and maybe the breathing rate even slowed down. He's leaning/sitting upright in some PVC instead of laying on his side now.

 

[LukFox]

They are all terrified of the camera, but I caught her out and took a couple videos to show the tilt. The tilt is actually much worse than I thought it was when I made the previous post.

 

[LukFox]

Okay umm. Well I am beginning to think that maybe it really is the copper, and maybe the copper test kit is off and it is too high. The weird way the big female is swimming could be due to copper, right? I read it can affect the nervous system...

I am going to put them in an aerated bucket of clean DT water and see what happens I guess. :hmm5: Maybe I'll use a sterilite tub. I have a spare 41 quart, so that's bigger and has more surface area.

 

[Recty]

I'd get them out the "bad" water fast, I think. It isnt going to hurt. You might have to treat again later but at least you're keeping them alive that way.

EDIT - Well I watched the video, it doesnt look that bad to me. But you know your fish better than me.

 

[LukFox]

Exactly, I wish I had done it sooner. I wasn't sure if I was fighting something that the meds would help or the meds itself, but I'm thinking the female's sudden change in condition is likely from the copper now. They're all in the 41 quart now. Hopefully there will be a positive change. If so, I'll clean out the QT and put them back, and just skip copper. If this doesn't break them out into disease I probably shouldn't worry about them carrying anything.

Compared to the way they usually swim, it is a big change for her. She usually swims smoother than that, too. She also refused food for the first time this afternoon.

 

[Recty]

I hope it works out for you. I've seen fish start losing their color after copper treatment, a guy up here had quite a few angels that got a copper overdose and they paled pretty quickly, the next day they were pale and he had dosed way too much copper when we tested it.

I'm not saying you over dosed, but it's possible and definitely losing color seems to be an indication they at the very least are not happy with the water.

 

[LukFox]

Ah they didn't pale out, though, but by the time I fished them out the female was wearing her stress/sleeping colors. Hopefully this all ends well. Thanks, Recty!

I should look into a different copper test brand. I'm using an API test right now, and although it isn't old it is a bit hard to read. What brand did you use?

 

[Recty]

I use Seachem's test kit with Seachem's copper product (Cupramine) and have good results. It specifically says it's made for that type of copper so I figure why not use it.

I havent found a copper test kit I like though, but Seachem's isnt bad once you get used to it.

 

[jjk_reef00]

I'm afraid of over dosing copper. I try to use qt tanks that are 55 gallons or less if possible. That way I use 5 gallon buckets to measure how much water I add back into the qt tank while I'm doing my water changes. Then I dose cupramine to the proper amount.

I also remove rock and anything else that I think could absorb the copper. If you do all your water changes like this it is very unlikely you will overdose copper. That is just my opinion.

Also I have used prazi a few times and ever time I do it the fish seem very lethargic. Especially fish that like highly oxygenated water such as tangs. I still put at least 1 air stone in the qt when I treat prazi.

 

[LukFox]

Looks like copper was just a bad choice for these guys. When the male started going downhill, they were still at the starting dose that the bottle says to use on day 1 and then redose 48 hours later. No other copper added. But all of the symptoms match copper poisoning, so it's nice to know that that's taken care of with a simple cleaning out. Phew! Thanks a million, Recty, for suggesting copper sensitivity.

Today I have three active, eating wrasses! The male has returned to his "normal" rapid breathing level that he has had since his arrival, and the girls breathe normally. If a new prazi treatment doesn't kick the male's breathing, maybe his breathing rate is just normally higher...

jjk_reef00, prazi has even affected my fish's eagerness to eat aggressively and they turn into pickers over the course of treatment. At least prazi wasn't the issue here, and I can safely use it.

 

[Recty]

No problem, I like to help

You could go with the "transfer" method to treat ich... if you dont know what it is, I'll explain real quick

Have two tanks set up... one with fish, one without. We will call the first tank Tank #1 and the second Tank #2.

After two days, move your fish from Tank #1 to Tank #2. Immediately drain tank #1, bleach it and clean it GOOD, including all equipment like powerheads or filters. Let it dry or whatever, rinse it out good, then set it up again. Two days later, move the fish from Tank #2 to Tank #1 and repeat the cleaning process on Tank #2.

After 14 days of this, your fish should be ich free. The ich that hatches off the fish and hits the ground has to sit for a couple days before it swims back up to reattach to the fish. If you never let them get to the point where they swim, the fish will never be reinfected. You need to do this for 2 or 3 weeks (I'd personally do 3) and by that point all the ich has hatched off the wrasses and you're home free. It's definitely more labor intensive than the other methods of treating for ich, but it doesnt require low salinity or copper which wrasses are notoriously poor in dealing with.

 

[jjk_reef00]

LukFox I'm glad your fish are doing better!

Recty that is a very cool technique. Sorry to hijack but I saw you had an Achilies tang in your old FOWLR. Did you treat that with copper?

 

[LukFox]

Yeeahhh that method has always seemed so laborious... Maybe I'll have to. Part of me just wants to be lazy and add them to the DT hoping they don't have anything, but I've even gone through the trouble of QTing non-fish items so that would kind of stink if they introduced something lol.

If I used plastic tubs for this, would the tubs retain bleach? They'd be MUCH easier to keep cleaning out.

 

[Recty]

I dont think they would retain bleach... but if you're worried, just use a dechlorinator like Prime.

I never really thought about using tubs for it but that would work a lot easier than a glass tank.

 

[Recty]

LukFox I'm glad your fish are doing better!

Recty that is a very cool technique. Sorry to hijack but I saw you had an Achilies tang in your old FOWLR. Did you treat that with copper?

Yep, I treated him with copper, he came through it just fine. I ended up getting rid of him because he was a jerk to some other fish I liked, but while I had him he seemed plenty healthy after the copper treatment.

 

[LukFox]

I dont think they would retain bleach... but if you're worried, just use a dechlorinator like Prime.

I never really thought about using tubs for it but that would work a lot easier than a glass tank.

Sounds good !

 

[Recty]

Not that it's really any of my business, but are you female? I just saw your signature and it says "alexa" which is a friend of mine's name who is female, I cant say I've ever heard of a dude with that name.