WTB superman monti or watermelon

This is a good topic.

I really see no ugliness in this thread, only disagreement. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Well, this gets more interesting and I'm pleased Trop Trea gave us some stats on his operational costs.

Now, a typical reef shop most likely has those kinds of numbers to deal with and probably higher each month. So for example they may have to sell certain frags for $50 based on their wholesale price and the high amount of money it takes to run the shop.

Now lets step into the fish room of a typical hobbyist. I dont have the retail costs to keep my door open and lights on. So my costs to run my tank are no where near a fish shops. So I cant justify selling frags for the same amount of a fish shop. That $50 frag from the fish shop is probably worth $25 or less when it comes out of my tank.

Now there is supply and demand. Some things are getting more money now and this goes in cycles. But as a hobbyist I feel that we should be trading fairly amongst ourselves to preserve the reefs and reduce the amounts of collections being made. So I almost feel that as I take these things from the ocean I have an obligation to make the healthy growers in my collection available to others. Under this approach we help others who are interested in certain species get a piece from us rather than the reef.

So, yeah it does make me cringe when I see some posted prices for frags. I think some are out of their minds for what they ask. At most I think a hobbyist should ask for a frag is the wholesale price a retailer pays. But like I posted before I know for a fact there are guys out there that have to deal with the spousal acceptance factor to keep their operation going and have coral buying funds from their sales to keep buying new corals and thats fabulous.

But also like I posted before if you dont like the price -walk away from it. If someone doesn't like my price and there have been people I'm not offended, $10-$15 a frag is my mind a reasonable price for most things. There are a few exceptions, sunset montis, supermans, alien warbird zoos, red stags/milli's etc etc. But even then $35 would probably be max for a small frag.
 
We keep refering to frags. However keep in mind that the average store does not deal in frags so much as small corals. The average coral that is wholesaled could probably be split into 3 frags. then the average customer is also not interested in frags but he wants something that will look good in his/her tank imediatly. The old desire for instant gratification.

Now lets look at aquaculturing. Yes this is so called futute of the hobby. But if you look at what it realy costs the hobbiest to aquaculture a coral does he have more money invested in it than in if simply bought the coral from a retailer.

then where does one cut that dividuing line from a pure hobbies, to a hobbiest that does aquaculturing, to the comercial aquaculturist. If each of these three are selling a frag I'm sure each would have a different price for that same frag. And everyone of them would be justified in what they are asking.

If you add just a frag tank to your system remember your adding cost in many ways. The cost of the tank, lights, pumps, the larger skimmer higher electric bills and more chemicals. Everyone has a limit on there budget and selling a few frags ocassionaly helps keep those costs in line. But if you think your going to make money at it I think your in for a shocker. If you charged enough to make a profit your prices would be so high that most people would simply walk away.

The only way to make money would be have something that noone could get anywhere else and have a large enough demand to get a premium price.

Think of it like the flowerhorn story. The fist dozen to hit the market at auctions went for several thousand dollars. 6 months later they were getting hundreds of dollars per fish, a year later they were wholesaling at $5.00 each. Sure a coral will not drop that fast in price but it is still supply verses demand.

If 10 people are willing to pay $200 for a coral then it is a fair price. If only no-one wants to pay $20.00 for a coral then it is not a fair price. I personly would prefer to trade if I had something to trade that interested someone.

Dennis
 
i told myself i would not reply, but i cant help reading all the post.
i will not make a book for everyone to read.
short and sweet.

i know why it cost what it does at STORES, but people that are selling frags on here dont own stores. so stop giving us store examples and reasons. We all know what it cost to run a reef, so we cant complain about bills, when we can stop reefing and save money on bills.

johns, coo you bought it for 120, like i said 3 people buy your dime size frag for 40 you made your money back, and guess what you still have a pc to grow and keep making money.

I hope i can get a frag and let it grow for awhile and then sell back to locals for dirt cheap, and keep this hobby alive and strong.
 
TropTrea, I think there is more of a market for frags than there is for whole corals, esp at the retail level. We dont see it so much here in WI because the stores around here are a little slow in that respect, but even down in chi-town... look at what Sharky's used to do... I would spend $200 on frags before $200 in whole pieces. Down south, several stores have taken to fragging themselves... a few places I walk into have a good portion of the store with nothing but egg-crate and frag plugs filled and ready for sale... often $10-30 a frag.

So I think the demand is there, just the stores up here dont know how to do it.

The thing I will point out, and I think others have touched on, is that when we swap/sell for cheap among ourselves, we are limiting our selection in a drastic way. Over time, I have seen most tanks in this area with the same few corals. When I go to see a new tank I can bet on these few corals being in it:

Pink Birdsnest (thats my contribution)
Orange Whorling Cap
Pink Cap
That blue stag/ brown stag with blue tips
Green Birdsnest
Pink Pom Pom
GSP
Silver Xenia
Purple & Green Shrooms
Green Slimer
Green center, yellow rim zoas
Purple digi
etc.

Its gotten to the point where I cant even trade with anyone in the club except for those few who actually buy corals from sources outside WI...lol. JohnS, Bill, Paul, and sometimes Cory, Josh, and Prugs are the only ones that come to mind. Otherwise, its a monoculture of corals we end up with. Now, while this might be fine for beginners, I didnt buy a nano-cube for a reason! If I wanted to look at the corals and fish that Cindy-Who has, I would just go to Cindy-Who's place. I want the stuff that is unique... the cherry looking stuff that comes through LA... you know? And I have no problem paying for it. But when someone used to trading for GSP comes along and suggests I should break off a piece of that new lokani acro for them in exchange for a frag of pink xenia (that you dont see in my tank for a reason)... I might chase them out of my house! Lol.

Id say superman monti isnt all that rare, but its a slow grower for most, and its not the easiest to frag, let alone grow in the first place. While I might agree that green slimer has almost become a 'freebie' in recent years, superman monti isnt part of the '$20 frag club' and most likely never will be. JohnS's price on that is more than fair. Consider this: rather than making a frag, John could just leave it in his tank, getting more tha $40 of enjoyment out of it by just keeping it.
 
TropTrea, I think there is more of a market for frags than there is for whole corals, esp at the retail level. We dont see it so much here in WI because the stores around here are a little slow in that respect, but even down in chi-town... look at what Sharky's used to do... I would spend $200 on frags before $200 in whole pieces. Down south, several stores have taken to fragging themselves... a few places I walk into have a good portion of the store with nothing but egg-crate and frag plugs filled and ready for sale... often $10-30 a frag.

So I think the demand is there, just the stores up here dont know how to do it.

The thing I will point out, and I think others have touched on, is that when we swap/sell for cheap among ourselves, we are limiting our selection in a drastic way. Over time, I have seen most tanks in this area with the same few corals. When I go to see a new tank I can bet on these few corals being in it:

Pink Birdsnest (thats my contribution)
Orange Whorling Cap
Pink Cap
That blue stag/ brown stag with blue tips
Green Birdsnest
Pink Pom Pom
GSP
Silver Xenia
Purple & Green Shrooms
Green Slimer
Green center, yellow rim zoas
Purple digi
etc.

Its gotten to the point where I cant even trade with anyone in the club except for those few who actually buy corals from sources outside WI...lol. JohnS, Bill, Paul, and sometimes Cory, Josh, and Prugs are the only ones that come to mind. Otherwise, its a monoculture of corals we end up with. Now, while this might be fine for beginners, I didnt buy a nano-cube for a reason! If I wanted to look at the corals and fish that Cindy-Who has, I would just go to Cindy-Who's place. I want the stuff that is unique... the cherry looking stuff that comes through LA... you know? And I have no problem paying for it. But when someone used to trading for GSP comes along and suggests I should break off a piece of that new lokani acro for them in exchange for a frag of pink xenia (that you dont see in my tank for a reason)... I might chase them out of my house! Lol.

Id say superman monti isnt all that rare, but its a slow grower for most, and its not the easiest to frag, let alone grow in the first place. While I might agree that green slimer has almost become a 'freebie' in recent years, superman monti isnt part of the '$20 frag club' and most likely never will be. JohnS's price on that is more than fair. Consider this: rather than making a frag, John could just leave it in his tank, getting more tha $40 of enjoyment out of it by just keeping it.
 
I cant stand nano-cubes. I could give you ever reason why nano-cubes should just be taken out back and shot, but Ill leave it at that. Lets just say that nano-reefing was alot more interesting years ago before the cube came out. Im not sorry for saying it even. If I ever win one at a meeting by accident or something, Ill most likely take it out back and punt it... okay, maybe Ill give it away... but you get the idea.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11412737#post11412737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

If I wanted to look at the corals and fish that Cindy-Who has, I would just go to Cindy-Who's place.
Click to expand...

The Who's were all sooo happy. Can you take me to Who-ville? I'm glad the Grinch turned out to be a good guy.
 
johns, coo you bought it for 120

Marcus- You are absolutely right. I shouldnt have to explain to you how much I paid for a coral or justify why I paid this or that amount, etc. I think you are grown up enough yourself. Some people choose to buy unique corals or frags from online sources, known lineage, cherry pickers, etc. Others like to get stuff exclusively from other local reefers. This later approach might limit a great deal what we trade amongst ourselves, like hahnmeister said. But this is not the only reason why much of what I've done has taken this route. When I started out in this hobby several years ago, not having known about WRS or many other reefers in the area, I chose (or was almost forced in a way) to buy the vast majority of my stock from online places I trust. Maybe I paid more for certain things because they had some 'name' attached to them, etc. Sometimes they were worth the extra money and sometimes in the end maybe they were not. But I never charged more for coral frags than what I thought they were worth at the time, and always at a discount from what I paid for them - always.

like i said 3 people buy your dime size frag for 40 you made your money back

Thank you for reading into my intentions :rolleyes:

Except I havent made my money back, probably wont, nor do i care if I do. I wasnt trying very hard to come out in the general forums to sell these frags until I responded to aquadog. He specifically asked about this coral, and I responded to him.

and guess what you still have a pc to grow and keep making money

This is kind of offensive. As I have stated numerous times, I'd prefer to trade. And if I wanted the money I would have sold these months ago. Or posted somewhere else where I know I'd get more value without having to explain myself (hint - just look at some of the other posts in this thread about places where people are willing to spend more on a coral). I also stated I had no intention of growing this coral out to frag like some sort of cash cow. It's not even a coral with a growth structure that really lends itself to that. I prefer to just grow it out as much as I can for myself. Only if it encroaches on another coral would I have a reason to frag it up again.

So it sounds like you think I have an aquaculture facility here to grow out frags from the pieces I bring in and cut up like some sort of chop shop? Sorry, but you are sadly mistaken. But again, I dont know why I need to explain myself to you.

I hope i can get a frag and let it grow for awhile
So how much do you want to buy your superman monti frag for?

and then sell back to locals for dirt cheap
BTW - buying coral frags for dirt cheap and then selling off a bunch of the subsequent frags dirt cheap is a pretty good way of turning a profit in itself.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11396703#post11396703 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marcus71
me toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Marcus, not to be a Richard, but John was not really trying to pimp his coral. I do believe he was helping someone out. Aquadog asked if someone had a frag for sale and John did. I'm sure he knows how much they go for and probably did buy one for Johns exuberant price. :cool:
Looks to me like you might have not known what these frags go for or if you do your looking to get one cheaply. This post here makes me laugh a little.
This post is a good point why Josh and I don't even sell frags too much any more. In fact my frag tank is down. It seems like people can justify spending $25 for a frag at the LFS but can't seem to dig deep enough for a $10 or $15 at someones house. There were people that would spen and say "Come on take some more money" but we would refuse. So now my frags go to the LFS. If someone needs a frag of something I have, I can always cut a piece for them.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11411817#post11411817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marcus71


johns, coo you bought it for 120, like i said 3 people buy your dime size frag for 40 you made your money back, and guess what you still have a pc to grow and keep making money.

I hope i can get a frag and let it grow for awhile and then sell back to locals for dirt cheap, and keep this hobby alive and strong.
Click to expand...

If John can sell a hundo of these corals for $35 a piece, Good for him. Also if you get a colony and want to sell them for dirt chep throw me on your frag list.:)
There is no reason one person has to buy the original colony for $75-$120 for a frag. Grow it out for a year and sell it for $15. That's what I like about Johns corals. Now on the other hand If I get a coral for cheap or free I do the same in return.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11414943#post11414943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gopack
this is a subject i will stay out of
Click to expand...

Bill you said something in regards to this whole scenario about a year ago when I first met you when you came over. I couldn't believe what you said, but you were right on. Also sorry I couldn't make it to your place last time. The Flu kicked my a$$. I'll have to get over there soon.
 
Actually, Cory, do you think you might have some time later this week... thursday night I was thinking... we could go to Bills.

Oh, wait, Bill, do you have poker this thurs night again?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11415062#post11415062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gopack
maybe I should write an artical on how to ruin the value of a coral.
Click to expand...

I wouldnt worry too much about it. You cant 'fix' the prices, and once corals become more and more common, their price goes down. The same thing happened in african cichlids for me. I was one of the first to bring over a fish called the 'chaitika white calvus', and the few I had turned into a show breeding trio. I ended up with a few hundred fry being born every other week. By the end of one summer, I had sold about $14,000 in fry and was using two 300g rubbermaid stock tanks to raise more in.

Fast forward a few years, the quality of fish out of tanganyika has diminished for one, but I couldnt make nearly that much on any calvus, even the rare yellows. But fish that were once considered 'common' were bought less over the past few years, so the F1 and F0 breeding stock was not bought by many, and now these fish are rare again.

Eventually, rare corals will become common, its what happens. But common corals will often resurge in popularity and demand over time.

But yeah, Bill, you should write that article.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11415223#post11415223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nait002
Friday or Sat works better for me.
Click to expand...

Ill be in 'Lanta until Sunday night, or that would sound good to me too. Monday? Tuesday is Christmas eve, then christmas... dont know if you are off on Thursday or if you have plans...
 
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