Zeolites

[reefgeezer]

Is anyone out there using Zeovit or other zeiolites without using the other products recommended by the manufacturers?

I'm currently carbon dosing (vinegar & vodka)and also use a few drops of MB7 per week, but I just can't quite get to ULNS. Phosphates are not an issue, but nitrates seem to hold @ about 2 ppm on my Salifert kit. I don't employ a fuge or any type of sand bed, my live rock quantity is on the light side, and I have a very high fish population. I think zeolites may help me get over the hump. I'd really appreciate any of the memberships' experiences.

Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Have you tried dosing more of the organic carbon?

Also, if phosphate is very low, you may be limiting the nitrate removal.

Is anyone out there using Zeovit or other zeiolites without using the other products recommended by the manufacturers?

You mean using the zeolite alone?

That's a fine plan, but whether it provides anything uniquely useful is unclear. I get lots of growth of bacteria on my GAC, and while I likely could replace it with a zeolite, I'm not sure what benefit I’d see.

 

[reefgeezer]

Thanks Randy. I don't have a Hanna meter so I likely have some phosphates not detectable by my test kit. I am no where near what you are dosing, but it seems that if I dose more, I start to get dino's and cyano. I'm using 2 parts vinegar and 1 part vodka. I'm only dosing about 2 ml peer day. Its been a while since I tried to sneak it up. Maybe I'll try again. I'm also planning to dose MB7 with the zeolites.

My purpose for the Zeolite is two fold: 1) to provide some surface area for microbial growth; and 2) to remove that last little bit of nutrients I am having trouble with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Certainly, encouraging pests like cyano is a concern.

I don't think the zeolites used will remove any phosphate, and will only possibly remove a little nitrate when first added, assuming it is the right zeolite. If nutrient reduction is a goal, something like GFO is a far better bet, IMO.

 

[reefgeezer]

I can certainly add a little GFO. Thanks. I bought some Zeovit stones to see what happens. The DIY reactor was simple and I had the stuff around to build it anyway. I'll add some MB7 to seed it. We'll see what happens.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds good.

Good luck.

 

[alessandro]

Certainly, encouraging pests like cyano is a concern.

I don't think the zeolites used will remove any phosphate, and will only possibly remove a little nitrate when first added, assuming it is the right zeolite. If nutrient reduction is a goal, something like GFO is a far better bet, IMO.

Randy,
i use zeobak and zeostart along with zeolite and I keep zeolite for 6 weeks, as raccomanded from KZ, I have PO4 (hanna) generally at 0.03 and NO3 at 0.2,
what I noticed is when I change zeolite, the few days after my PO4 drops to 0.02 so I assume that zeolite helps with PO4...

 

[reefgeezer]

Randy,
i use zeobak and zeostart along with zeolite and I keep zeolite for 6 weeks, as raccomanded from KZ, I have PO4 (hanna) generally at 0.03 and NO3 at 0.2,
what I noticed is when I change zeolite, the few days after my PO4 drops to 0.02 so I assume that zeolite helps with PO4...

Are you using synthetic sea salt? I'm looking for a quality salt mix that has NSW alkalinity. I use Kent now and have no complaints except that it yields a alk of around 10 or higher. No big deal now as I'm only doing small water changes. However, when I start the big tank, I'll want a different salt. Any ideas.

Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

what I noticed is when I change zeolite, the few days after my PO4 drops to 0.02 so I assume that zeolite helps with PO4...

It's certainly possible, but other things are changing too (like available surface area to bind organics and encourage more bacterial growth, which might in turn reduce available nutrients. I do not know exactly what zeolite they use, so I can't draw on any published data.

 

[philbo32]

Certainly, encouraging pests like cyano is a concern.

I don't think the zeolites used will remove any phosphate, and will only possibly remove a little nitrate when first added, assuming it is the right zeolite. If nutrient reduction is a goal, something like GFO is a far better bet, IMO.

Zeovit does not remove nitrate or phosphate directly, it is the bacteria on the surface and under the surface of the zeolites that use up nitrate and phosphate. If you use GFO it will compete with the bacteria on the zeolites for nitrate and phosphate; this can cause problems. Which is why the Zeovit guide recommends against using GFO with zeolites. When you first add zeolite to the reactor it is recommended that you use a 3hour on and 3hour off cycle to help the different bacteria become seeded.

Zeovit works by removing ammonia from the water column, it also removes a small amount of potassium, calcium and sodium and iron. The zeolite has an affinity for these chemicals. It uses a process of ion exchange to essentially swap ions and has a preference for ammonia, this concentrates the ammonia within the zeolites and allows bacteria to remove it so the zeolite can continue to remove ions like more ammonia. The reactor has a pump and needs to be 'pumped' 10 times daily to remove excess bacteria. This excess bacteria will either become the food source for a lot of corals, filter feeders or other bacteria, or will end up being removed by your skimmer. You are best to measure potassium as this can become very depleted by bacterial activity and the action of the zeolites. Over time this bacterial film can get quite thick and affect the ion exchanging efficiency of the zeolite, plus the zeolite can get a lot of other ions locked in them which the bacteria can't use. This is why 80% needs to be replaced every 6 weeks.

Are you using synthetic sea salt? I'm looking for a quality salt mix that has NSW alkalinity. I use Kent now and have no complaints except that it yields a alk of around 10 or higher. No big deal now as I'm only doing small water changes. However, when I start the big tank, I'll want a different salt. Any ideas.

Thanks

I use Red Sea Coral Pro which has a closer to NSW alk.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It uses a process of ion exchange to essentially swap ions and has a preference for ammonia, this concentrates the ammonia within the zeolites and allows bacteria to remove it so the zeolite can continue to remove ions like more ammonia.

That is a claim some have made, but I think it is an unsupported assertion that makes no real sense.

If anything, binding ammonia to a zeolite will reduce the local concentration in the vicinity of the bacteria, making it LESS likely they will be able to take it up. Bacteria cannot take up ammonia that is actually bound, only ammonia that finds it way over to their cell membranes for active or passive uptake. A zeolite could only reduce (or not change at all) that availability of ammonia.

FWIW, we've had many discussions of this, and while I do not spend time in zeovit forums, I've been told that the zeovit "owners" do not make this claim (or at least no longer do so).

 

[philbo32]

It uses a process of ion exchange to essentially swap ions and has a preference for ammonia, this concentrates the ammonia within the zeolites and allows bacteria to remove it so the zeolite can continue to remove ions like more ammonia.

That is a claim some have made, but I think it is an unsupported assertion that makes no real sense.

If anything, binding ammonia to a zeolite will reduce the local concentration in the vicinity of the bacteria, making it LESS likely they will be able to take it up. Bacteria cannot take up ammonia that is actually bound, only ammonia that finds it way over to their cell membranes for active or passive uptake. A zeolite could only reduce (or not change at all) that availability of ammonia.

FWIW, we've had many discussions of this, and while I do not spend time in zeovit forums, I've been told that the zeovit "owners" do not make this claim (or at least no longer do so).

I was just explaining the best theory of zeolites ability to reduce nitrates and phosphates. How can you make this statement when it has not been proven? How does it work so efficiently at removing nitrate and phosphate? It has been proven that the zeovit doesn't absorb nitrate or phosphate and does absorb ammonia, potassium, calcium, sodium and iron. It has also been proven that zeolite can only absorb chemicals for 8 hours in sea water and then it is exhausted. http://www.worldfishcenter.org/naga/Naga24-1&2/pdf/aquabyte 4.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You seem to be broadening this way beyond what I criticized. I'm only disputing the ammonia binding and subsequent improved availability of ammonia to bacteria, not the whole issue of what zeolites do or what zeovit and carbon dosing accomplish with respect to nutrient reduction.

Of course adding organic carbon is very effective at driving bacterial growth and reducing nutrients. That does not require any zeolite. A thousand reefers on Reef Central (myself included) dose vodka or vinegar or sugar or some such organics and reduce nutrients by bacterial action, without any zeolite. A zeolite is a fine surface to grow bacteria, as is granular activated carbon, live rock, and many other materials.

It is the very specific assertion regarding ammonia binding to the zeolite providing ammonia to the bacteria that is wholly without merit. There is zero evidence that it works that way, aside from some folks stating it. There is a clear and, IMO, convincing science reason that it cannot work. I really don't think anything more is needed here to refute an assertion that lacks any evidence, but I will agree that I may not be able to provide evidence that could convince you it is untrue, if the argument I made above does not convince you.

FWIW, some zeolites can bind phosphate from seawater. Some likely bind nitrate as well. Clinoptilolite likely does not, but I do not personally know what zeolite zeovit sells. But I am certainly not claiming such processes are important or active in zeovits zeolite. Bacterial growth certainly accounts for its effectiveness, as shown by those who dose organic carbon and get similar results with no zeolite.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just as an aside, and not as a claim it relates to zeovit, but as evidence of what COULD be, here's an article that shows that at least the zeolite they tested can remove phosphate from seawater:

Phosphate removal in marine electrolytes by zeolite synthesized from coal fly ash

Qingyu Guana, Xiaozhen Hub, Deyi Wua, , , , Xiao Shanga, Chun Yeb and Hainan Konga
aSchool of Environmental Science and Engineering, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, No. 800, Dongchuan Rd., Minhang District, Shanghai 200240, China
bChinese Research Academy of Environmental Sciences, No. 8, Dayangfang, Beiyuan, Chaoyang District, Beijing 100012, China


Abstract
The aim of this study was to examine the influence of seawater electrolytes on removal of phosphate by zeolite synthesized from fly ash (ZFA). A low-calcium ZFA was initially saturated with Na+, Mg2+, Ca2+, Al3+, and Fe3+. Al- and Fe-ZFA showed nearly complete removal of phosphate regardless of the major seawater electrolytes, pH, and salinity. This result was explained primarily on the basis of the adsorption mechanism through the formation of inner-sphere complexes. The remaining ZFAs showed lower phosphate removal performance, in general with the order of Ca-ZFA > Mg-ZFA > Na-ZFA. Compared with pure water, increase of electrolyte concentration or salinity initially enhanced phosphate uptake but then reduced phosphate removal. The individual presence of major seawater electrolytes all facilitated the retention of phosphate, with CaCl2 being the most effective. The mechanism for phosphate removal by Na-, Mg-, and Ca-ZFA was due mostly to precipitation. Repeated batch equilibration experiments indicated that, compared with pure water, ZFA had greater sorptive capacity for phosphate (except for Ca-ZFA, whose capacity decreased slightly) and had lower reversibility for sorbed phosphate in marine electrolytes. In conclusion, our results suggest that presence of seawater electrolytes had roughly no effect, or even positive effects, on the removal of phosphate by ZFA.

 

[philbo32]

Just as an aside, and not as a claim it relates to zeovit, but as evidence of what COULD be, here's an article that shows that at least the zeolite they tested can remove phosphate from seawater:

Phosphate removal in marine electrolytes by zeolite synthesized from coal fly ash

Qingyu Guana, Xiaozhen Hub, Deyi Wua, , , , Xiao Shanga, Chun Yeb and Hainan Konga
aSchool of Environmental Science and Engineering, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, No. 800, Dongchuan Rd., Minhang District, Shanghai 200240, China
bChinese Research Academy of Environmental Sciences, No. 8, Dayangfang, Beiyuan, Chaoyang District, Beijing 100012, China


Abstract
The aim of this study was to examine the influence of seawater electrolytes on removal of phosphate by zeolite synthesized from fly ash (ZFA). A low-calcium ZFA was initially saturated with Na+, Mg2+, Ca2+, Al3+, and Fe3+. Al- and Fe-ZFA showed nearly complete removal of phosphate regardless of the major seawater electrolytes, pH, and salinity. This result was explained primarily on the basis of the adsorption mechanism through the formation of inner-sphere complexes. The remaining ZFAs showed lower phosphate removal performance, in general with the order of Ca-ZFA > Mg-ZFA > Na-ZFA. Compared with pure water, increase of electrolyte concentration or salinity initially enhanced phosphate uptake but then reduced phosphate removal. The individual presence of major seawater electrolytes all facilitated the retention of phosphate, with CaCl2 being the most effective. The mechanism for phosphate removal by Na-, Mg-, and Ca-ZFA was due mostly to precipitation. Repeated batch equilibration experiments indicated that, compared with pure water, ZFA had greater sorptive capacity for phosphate (except for Ca-ZFA, whose capacity decreased slightly) and had lower reversibility for sorbed phosphate in marine electrolytes. In conclusion, our results suggest that presence of seawater electrolytes had roughly no effect, or even positive effects, on the removal of phosphate by ZFA.

This is very interesting, I wonder how they made the fly ash safe to use as it is usually full of toxic contaminates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe they didn't. China isn't big on such worries.

 

[FirstContact]

Randy,

Is Seachem's Matrix a zeolite? Would GFO be more optimal than Matrix?

Thanks,
FirstContact

 

[alessandro]

this is very interesting:
(posted from a fellow reefer in an italian forum)

http://www.ftb.com.hr/41-331.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is Seachem's Matrix a zeolite? Would GFO be more optimal than Matrix?

I'm not sure, but it could be. Optimal to achieve what?

 

[philbo32]

It is the very specific assertion regarding ammonia binding to the zeolite providing ammonia to the bacteria that is wholly without merit. There is zero evidence that it works that way, aside from some folks stating it. There is a clear and, IMO, convincing science reason that it cannot work. I really don't think anything more is needed here to refute an assertion that lacks any evidence, but I will agree that I may not be able to provide evidence that could convince you it is untrue, if the argument I made above does not convince you.

I have now changed my view to this way of thinking, I have just found a scientific paper that for me proves that bacteria cannot remove ions from the zeolite when locked.

I do think that zeolites do act a completely differently way to GAC and GFO in sea water as both GAC and GFO lock up chemicals and tend to keep them locked up. I am convinced that the bacteria do use the ammonia nitrite and nitrate in the zeolite but as it is released from the zeolite. My hypothesis is that these chemicals are absorbed by the zeolite as seen in many papers, but due to the amount of sodium ions in sea water the zeolite continually absorbs and releases these chemicals exchanging the above chemicals for sodium and vice versa. Bacteria feed on the chemicals as they are released and absorbed. I have put together a method to try to prove this using lab techniques.