Zeovit, Aqua Forest, Triton... Confused

[Esper]

Dave B,

Thank you for such an excellent description of the Triton method! Especially what it does and doesn't do. I've never seen such a good summary in one place.

There is no need to use any certain method really, unless you want a certain look or goal in sps coloration or maintenance. I would focus on the basics if your going to add sps since that's all that is needed in the first place. Adding other things to your tank can complicate the process and if your not aware of what's needed you can mess up a tank quickly with a few products.

This times 100000%.

Big Rant
You don't need to follow zeovit, aquaforest, or triton to be successful and have growing, colorful corals. People have been doing that for almost two decades. Look at some of the very first Tanks of the Month on Reefkeeping Magazine.

It can be challenging enough to stay on top of nitrogen, phosphorus, alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium in a growing tank full of corals. Mastering stability of these parameters can get you 90% of the results we all want in an SPS tank. If you have strange problems you can't seem to solve, or if you are bored with maintaining the big three, or if you are chasing that extra 10% color/growth potential, then Triton, et. al. may be for you.

I've never tried these systems, but Triton sounds like the best of the three to me. Instead of magic bottles full of...something...Triton gives you more insight into your actual water parameters. It then helps you adjust those parameters for stability.

Of course, we don't yet know the effect on coral health of stabilizing these elements. It might make all the difference, or it might not matter at all. At least Triton allows us to investigate relationships between elements and coral health.

As Dave B mentioned, there's a lot more going on in a reef tank than just elements in the water. Triton doesn't address the more complex organic systems.

Do the methods work?
Yeah, they might. I would argue that most hobbyists aren't scientific enough to say for sure. It is difficult to do scientific studies on the effects of ANYTHING on coral health because there are so many extraneous variables that need to be held constant or eliminated in order to make meaningful conclusions. It is difficult for scientists to keep every parameter stable except the one they are looking at. It is almost impossible for the average hobbyist to do so.

For example, even something as "simple" as alkalinity is not yet fully understood. Many here in the SPS forum advise NSW alkalinity levels (7-8 dkh). However, Dana Riddle observed more photosynthetic activity with higher alkalinity (10-11 dkh). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBktpJ3umAs We don't even have a good consensus on that.

Little Rant:
This is a hobby, and I think sometimes people just like to spend money on new toys for their hobby. Ten years of water changes and alkalinity tests gets boring! Once you have the best skimmer, and the best lights, and everything else, there's nothing left to buy. Nothing left to research.

Triton, et. al. give the bored hobbyist something to do. New parameters to test and balance! New things to learn! Stuff to talk about in forums! And if it works, you are rewarded with better growth and colors, and you become internet famous.

I'm not saying these methods don't work. I'm saying you can do A LOT without them. Start off simple, and when/if you get bored, then look into these methods. Maybe the science will catch up in the meantime.

 

[jda]

I agree a lot with the above post. I also think that when some people are at a critical mass in their experience or are ready to reinvest, they often look for new methods or techniques that don't amount to much - it was getting to the critical mass or the new investment that made the difference and the new technique was just along for the ride. Later, the find that they are just as well off without the new stuff when they quit doing it.

 

[Stickboy97]

I think the reason I'm inquiring about these methods is I am looking for results sooner than later.

I plan to take my time learning how to get my tank stable, starting with "easier" SPS and getting the basics down, but soon I'll want to start gathering more and more corals and frags & I want to be ready to start one of these methods, and get results. (and I want to have the equipment ready and on hand)

Honestly, the thought of filling my tank full of frags & waiting 3 years for them to grow slowly into large colonies is not my cup of tea. If there is a way to boost growth, by feeding, monitoring, supplementing etc.... I'm going that route.

I also want someone to tell me what to add... which is why I think I am leaning Triton. They tell you what you are missing, no mystery bottles.

I was talking with a fellow reefer here in town yesterday and he gave me good advice, like so many others, that I plan to listen to.

Start small, start "easy" and be prepared to fail; but learn. Don't rush the beginning (basics) but then be ready to take off once I know what is happening in my tank.

 

[jda]

If you are any good at this, then within three years, one-half inch frags can fill a tank where they are touching and need trimmed every few months. Some people have to reboot every three or four years with frags due to gridlocked growth.

If you want the best possible results, then going with HQI driven Radiums can do more over any LED panel than Triton, Zeo, AF or the like.

 

[Piper27]

I think the reason I'm inquiring about these methods is I am looking for results sooner than later.

I plan to take my time learning how to get my tank stable, starting with "easier" SPS and getting the basics down, but soon I'll want to start gathering more and more corals and frags & I want to be ready to start one of these methods, and get results. (and I want to have the equipment ready and on hand)

Honestly, the thought of filling my tank full of frags & waiting 3 years for them to grow slowly into large colonies is not my cup of tea. If there is a way to boost growth, by feeding, monitoring, supplementing etc.... I'm going that route.

I also want someone to tell me what to add... which is why I think I am leaning Triton. They tell you what you are missing, no mystery bottles.

I was talking with a fellow reefer here in town yesterday and he gave me good advice, like so many others, that I plan to listen to.

Start small, start "easy" and be prepared to fail; but learn. Don't rush the beginning (basics) but then be ready to take off once I know what is happening in my tank.

I wouldn't say any of these methods boost growth more than a standard system that feeds heavy and turns over nutrients effeciently. They are more for color and maintenance. If your looking for system to grow your corals quickly your not going to find one. They all work the same but are just different ways of processing nutrients or adding elements for color. Starting with maricultured or wild colonies might satisfy you if you don't want and to wait for frags to grow. Honestly I am the same way and actually like the challenge of wild and maricultured acros best.

 

[Stickboy97]

Figured I would start with corals already used to being under LED or in the aquarium, but down the road (once I understand SPS a little better) I'll try my hand at buying whole colonies. I've see some really nice pieces on Divers Den, but pricey.

 

[o2manyfish]

Stickboy,

Like you I couldn't start with a tank full of sticks. Especially with 400g gallons just as my display.

When I have had accidents and failures over the decades that require me to start collecting corals again I start with Bali Maricultured Pieces. These corals come in a huge variety and diversity. They easily adapt to aquarium conditions.

When you start with most frags you have a little stick.

Starting with a maricultured colony you might have anywhere from 10-30 branches on the mini colony when you bring it home. while a Frag has to grow awhile till it starts to branch off. The mini colony is going to grow from every single tip (assuming your parameters are good) I have had some bali pieces that within a year can go from being 2" colony to a 12" colony. And i am talking about stags, not montis or birdsnest.

Once i get a bunch of bali pieces in the tank, then i can start adding the little frags and still feel like i have an actual reef tank.

JDA's post about HQI driven Radiums is partially true. With the radiums you will get the best looking corals, but not the fastest growth. Radiums while making corals pretty are in the blue spectrum and it's not the 20k they are called but actually closer to 50-60k.

But in that spectrum the corals look good but are lacking the color spectrum that produces the most energy and growth in the corals. If you want faster growing - you get rid of the blue light and you run ugly old 5500k or 6500k. That gets you the fastest growth results.

Or take my route - put your frag tank outside under directly sunlight. I have been keeping frags outside in the sun for over 15 years. I have done every kind of lighting, including Radiums driven by every kind of ballast. And the corals outside, attached to the display tank, so Identical water parameters, grow 3-5x faster than under Radiums, or Radions.

But regardless of what light you give the corals, if you don't have the proper parameters, the corals cannot grow at any rate. All these methods, with all these names and styles, or even if it's a water change is about putting elements into the aquarium that the corals need to grow. Light alone cannot accomplish that.

Dave B

 

[Piper27]

Well said Dave! Especially about the Bali maricultured pieces. The only thing you need to learn different is how to pick healthy corals that come from the reef or culture farms. So many people are told that maricultured and wild corals are very hard to keep and often die, when they hear this it's repeated to others as fact. The key to success with these corals is choosing a healthy specimen and choosing one that is known to be a hearty coral. There are a few acros that are maricultured and wild that are very hard to keep and shouldn't be attempted unless you absolutely know what your doing.

 

[abhishek@1985]

Very interesting concepts. I am , on the other hand, like to fill my tank with frags. Currently, have more than 25 acro frags all 1-2 inches and plan on adding last 10 . Tank is small so have to stick to 35 .

In my experience , if you stick to proper plan with high light like metal halides especially iwasaki or ushio or radium and cray high flow (like am planning for 2 gyre 150 and 3 tunze 6055 in my 30 in x 30 in x 18 in ) tank and very very stable parameters - they will outgrow your expectations in 1.5 years with the exception of a very few slowly growing species like Purple Monster, Oregon Tort and Blue Matrix (that may be only for me).

The joy you have in seeing them grow from an inch frag to a massive 10 inch colony is difficult to express in words .
For nothing they say - Its a patient man's hobby and SPS is Stability Promotes Success.

Regards,
Abhishek

 

[Piper27]

True it's rewarding to grow from frags. I feel it's just as rewarding to grow a boring discolored wild or maricultured acro into a beautifuly colored colony or one that has good color into something very different in color Is just as beautiful. Not knowing what a piece will be once it's mature is the part that rewards me. It's just not as fun for me to grow something when I already know what it will look like. The main reason I don't buy frags anymore is only because fish knock them off the rocks and bubble algae gets the best of them if I get lazy. Plus any new nice ones are sooo expensive.

 

[Stickboy97]

I like the thought of buying both. I've found a couple of people looking to get out of the hobby that have colonies for sale, plus I've seen some online that are decent priced. But I can't afford to buy nothing but colonies (and learn to keep them) So I will buy frags as well.

I've had a couple of local reefers offer me free frags to get started, so that's probably going to come first.

 

[honkit]

Well said Dave! Especially about the Bali maricultured pieces. The only thing you need to learn different is how to pick healthy corals that come from the reef or culture farms. So many people are told that maricultured and wild corals are very hard to keep and often die, when they hear this it's repeated to others as fact. The key to success with these corals is choosing a healthy specimen and choosing one that is known to be a hearty coral. There are a few acros that are maricultured and wild that are very hard to keep and shouldn't be attempted unless you absolutely know what your doing.

I am kind of flabbergasted that this myth of wild and maricultured SPS corals being very difficult to keep is being actively propogated amongst the North American reef keepers. This is in direct contrast to what the Asian and European reefers are doing i.e. keeping wild and maricultured SPS corals with success. It's the tank conditions and husbandry that determines the success or death of SPS corals and certainly not due to whether the corals were plucked from a cultured farm or a reefer's frag tank.

 

[hubble]

So I've had salt water fish tanks since the early 90's, but I've never tried many corals and no SPS. I just transferred a 75g to a 105g and I want to try SPS.

I've read a ton here on RC and my local forums. As I read more about dosing, feeding, parameters etc I'm getting lost. There are so many great tanks using different methods. So if you use Zeo, AF or Triton can you tell me why you chose the one you did? If you use one of these any pointers as to which is easier?

(my tank, DSA 105g, 2 MP40, 3 Onyx LED, 40g sump, Aquamax EM300 skimmer, DC12000 pump & tropic Marin salt. I have 2 dosing pumps and 2 reactors, and no idea what I am going to use to feed , dose, put in the reactors etc. Purple tang, leopard wrasse, clown fish, 3 nems & 3 zoa colonies)

Any advice is welcome!!!

How about an update.............
What did you go with and the outcome ?

 

[shih87]

Shih87 what level of iodine do you keep in your system? What suppliment do you use for it? I never could get the saliferts test to read. I have been dosing everyday for a while so maybe I should check again. Seems it leaves the water column or gets used so quickly the test just doesn't read it

Sorry for late reply. Same here, I can't get a good, meaningful reading from test kit, so I simply look my coral performance instead. I use Af Iodum lately but used KZ for many years.

 

[Piper27]

I am kind of flabbergasted that this myth of wild and maricultured SPS corals being very difficult to keep is being actively propogated amongst the North American reef keepers. This is in direct contrast to what the Asian and European reefers are doing i.e. keeping wild and maricultured SPS corals with success. It's the tank conditions and husbandry that determines the success or death of SPS corals and certainly not due to whether the corals were plucked from a cultured farm or a reefer's frag tank.

Yea this myth is basically very concentrated to North America and I have always wondered why. I would guess that the frag trend here is part of it. In order for people to sell very expensive frags their customers have to the idea that the corals being bought are different or rarer than anything anyone other than the seller can get. Also people often think buying frags is a good way to make an easy pest free tank. The worst part of it all are the people who promote the idea that wild or maricultured acros always come with pests. Even though every time I get an infected coral it's ALWAYS been from a frag from another reefer.
In a number of places around the world frags are given away and only wild and maricultured corals are sold.

 

[honkit]

Yea this myth is basically very concentrated to North America and I have always wondered why. I would guess that the frag trend here is part of it. In order for people to sell very expensive frags their customers have to the idea that the corals being bought are different or rarer than anything anyone other than the seller can get. Also people often think buying frags is a good way to make an easy pest free tank. The worst part of it all are the people who promote the idea that wild or maricultured acros always come with pests. Even though every time I get an infected coral it's ALWAYS been from a frag from another reefer.
In a number of places around the world frags are given away and only wild and maricultured corals are sold.

A commercial reason being the underlying factor? Yes, that sounds about right.

As for pests, it doesn't matter where the source of the coral is - a conscientious reefer should ALWAYS dip and inspect (preferably with a magnifier of some sort) all incoming corals in particular SPS corals. A quarantine tank is a bonus although not many of us have the space and resources to house one.

In my part of the world, some of us do give away frags of the more common species. The nicer looking ones are still sold though :smokin:

 

[Bpb]

I'll chime in though this thread already has a ton of great info I'll try to keep mine as short as I can:

I use a hybrid "system" of vodka dosing and some zeovit additives

I have previously done biopellets, and while they worked, I didnt want to run more gear. Just not enough room for more plumbing and another reactor.

I tried to run a KISS tank with just light, flow, rock, and skimmer and it just didnt work for me. Even when cutting feedings to a small pinch every 2-3 days I was still having uncontrollable nutrients with NO3 up over 40 ppm and PO4 up over 0.44 ppm. I know some people say you can run a tank high nutrient and get great results but that was not the case for me. SPS growth stalled out to a standstill, and in many cases slow death. Even LPS and zoas lost their color and size.

After watching the BRS 160 final episode on Zeovit they said it's a great system, but if the ultimate goal is lowering nutrients, something so elaborate and expensive isnt necessary and that something as cheap and simple as vodka can work just as well to reach low nutrients. So I brought down my NO3 and PO4 slowly with vodka dosing and am now at 0.03 PPM PO4 and about 0.5 ppm NO3 using vodka alone.

I use some of the zeovit additives that were recommended to me from some friends and am pleased with the results. No, I cannot say what is exactly IN the little blue bottles, but I can definitely say that with a combination of the water changes (likely the most impactful culprit here), nutrient reduction, and zeovit addives, my tank is happier than its been in my entire time in the hobby. SPS growth is tremendous and very happy with my colors.

A "system" isnt necessary though. Really I fully believe the basics are all you need. Stable alkalinity. Low nutrients, correct parameters for all major and minor elements, quality strong lighting in the correct par range and coverage, and strong flow with heavy water turnover area all that are needed for explosive growth and fantastic colors. Additives from zeovit, AF, or any other company, if using sparingly, can just serve as a little extra push if things are already healthy.

I firmly believe if any one of the basics is lacking...if nutrients are high, lighting is poor, flow is lackluster, or if alk is fluctuating often, that no amount of additives will perk a tank up. just flushing money down the toilet. If everything is solid though they can absolutely give colors a tad more richness and polyps a little more extension