Canarygirl
New member
Why do y'all say that J. Prostrata is gone? He's been around recently (although not on this thread). Do you know something I don't know?
Zeovit
- Thread starter sailfintang
- Start date
Greetings All !
Great thread ! ... :thumbsup:
Not to be nit-picky or argumentative, but ...
This technical error is so glaring that I've often wondered if we're looking at a German-English translation error, or if a reference to zeolite behavior in freshwater somehow got inserted by mistake. If the word "affinity" is substituted for the phrase "selective preference", then the technical literature supports Mr. Kallmeyer's assertion.
Not JMO ... this is the science.
Great thread ! ... :thumbsup:
Not to be nit-picky or argumentative, but ...
Because different algae process & store N and P compounds in different ways, and at diferent rates. For example, Hincksia, Derbasia, Bryopsis, Chaetomorpha, Ulva, and Botryocladia all exhibit different levels of N assimilation and uptake kinetics (... along with other differences). Similarly, different algae host different guilds of epiphytic microbiota (which are also utilizing nutrients from the water column). ZEOusers often report persistent algal populations in their ecosystems, but typically not the "nuisance" species.
Actually, it depends on which marcoalgae is being considered. Chlorophyta species (green macroalgae ... like those typically applied for use as nutrient exporters) do indeed tend to extinguish, oftentimes rapidly, in ZEOsystems. However, both Phaeophyta species (brown macroalgae) and Rhodophyta species (Red Algae) have beeen reported to be persistent by many ZEOusers. Calcareous macroalgae can thrive in ZEOsystems.
The Kallmeyer article is a pretty good one, but we need to be careful with some of it. The notion of a "selective preference" for either ammonia or ammonium in a naturally occuring zeolite immersed in an ionic solution like seawater is entirely undemonstrated. The kinetics are the kinetics, and the electronegativity hierarchy is well established. However, differences in ion-exchange affinity ... Affinity ... for NH3/NH4 are well documented.
This technical error is so glaring that I've often wondered if we're looking at a German-English translation error, or if a reference to zeolite behavior in freshwater somehow got inserted by mistake. If the word "affinity" is substituted for the phrase "selective preference", then the technical literature supports Mr. Kallmeyer's assertion.
Not JMO ... this is the science.
That article is german to english translation with much of the instruction. I use the ultralith system from fauna marin, and the instructions are almost identical to that article on wet web media. Some of it does not translate well, so they have recently rewritten it to make a little more sense.
Wether you use zeovit, ultralith, prodibio, etc., or just try other ways such as refuge, heavy skimming, any kind of nutrient removal, we are all trying to do the same thing. Get our tanks( a closed system) as close to sea water levels as possible, sometimes even lower levels than sea water concerning nutrients. But there are no magic potions yet. It all takes work, and each system can be successful.
You can go through the TOTM articles, and see very elaborate systems that use the latest in high tech gadgetry and science, and other tnaks that use the very basic, even skimmerless that look equally as well.
To me, the best thing you can do, is research and pick how you want to run your tank. Then do the best that you can without jumping around or changing things. The most important thing is stability, and patience.
Wether you use zeovit, ultralith, prodibio, etc., or just try other ways such as refuge, heavy skimming, any kind of nutrient removal, we are all trying to do the same thing. Get our tanks( a closed system) as close to sea water levels as possible, sometimes even lower levels than sea water concerning nutrients. But there are no magic potions yet. It all takes work, and each system can be successful.
You can go through the TOTM articles, and see very elaborate systems that use the latest in high tech gadgetry and science, and other tnaks that use the very basic, even skimmerless that look equally as well.
To me, the best thing you can do, is research and pick how you want to run your tank. Then do the best that you can without jumping around or changing things. The most important thing is stability, and patience.
Greetings All !
Again, not meaning to be irritating to others, but ...
I have long believed that a Thiobacillus strain is present in ZeoBak (... but can't prove it). The "analysis" of the chemical changes that occured with the ZEOvit media in a ZEOvit system trial run back in 2002 showed shifts in the amounts of both Fe and S that are difficult to explain without factoring in bacterial utilization. Be that as it may, Fe clearly falls into the category of "bacterial nutrient" so I'm not sure that there can be an assertion that NO nutrient variable is operant with ZEOvit media.
JMO ...
Zedar ... congrats on your system. I'm definitely looking forward to reading your experiences with Sponge Power. You've clearly plugged into the major strands. Nice ! ... :thumbsup:
If I may presume ... as far as nutrient reduction goes ... it's all about what's going on with the biofilm in the reactor (hint: mass transfer). Everyone seems to want to get lost in the inexplicable fascination regarding the adsorption properties of zeolites in seawater (it's really not all that impressive) ... go figure. I suspect you'll find that the "optimal" flow and on-off cycling periods are going to be different (compared with a reactor filled with an aluminosilicate media).
If I may presume further ... don't give up on the notion of "mixed" carbon sources. The literature is clear about this ... different strains do different things with different carbon sources. "Monoculture" is a myth, trace amounts of selected heavy metal ions are not inherently "evil", and a single carbon source does not an optimally happy biofilm make. Even so, the pic you posted speaks volumes, so the kind of maximization that I'm talking about may not be of interest to you. Similarly, if you're after the growth patterns and color "pop" of a ZEOvit system, you're going to have to confront ... dare I say it? ... metabolism. Strange that no one wants to give Mr. Pohl his due credit in this area.
To get at "tweaking" the metabolism, you're going to need more than an inert colonization media, a carbon source, unknown amino acids, and "food". You're going to need ions that participate in cellular osmoregulation, electron donors, and enzyme & cofactor precursors ...
... and the means to deliver them.
JMO ... HTH ... Out.
:thumbsup:
Again, not meaning to be irritating to others, but ...
Hmmm ... for this to be true there would have to be the presumption that neither iron-oxidizing bacteria (IOB), nor sulfur-reducing bacteria (SRB) strains were present either in the ZeoBak, or our systems. I'm not so certain we can meet this prerequisite.
I have long believed that a Thiobacillus strain is present in ZeoBak (... but can't prove it). The "analysis" of the chemical changes that occured with the ZEOvit media in a ZEOvit system trial run back in 2002 showed shifts in the amounts of both Fe and S that are difficult to explain without factoring in bacterial utilization. Be that as it may, Fe clearly falls into the category of "bacterial nutrient" so I'm not sure that there can be an assertion that NO nutrient variable is operant with ZEOvit media.
JMO ...
Which makes the zeolithic media fundamentally different from either the SeaChem product ... or Bio-Chem Stars, or any of the plethora of cermanic media.
Zedar ... congrats on your system. I'm definitely looking forward to reading your experiences with Sponge Power. You've clearly plugged into the major strands. Nice ! ... :thumbsup:
If I may presume ... as far as nutrient reduction goes ... it's all about what's going on with the biofilm in the reactor (hint: mass transfer). Everyone seems to want to get lost in the inexplicable fascination regarding the adsorption properties of zeolites in seawater (it's really not all that impressive) ... go figure. I suspect you'll find that the "optimal" flow and on-off cycling periods are going to be different (compared with a reactor filled with an aluminosilicate media).
If I may presume further ... don't give up on the notion of "mixed" carbon sources. The literature is clear about this ... different strains do different things with different carbon sources. "Monoculture" is a myth, trace amounts of selected heavy metal ions are not inherently "evil", and a single carbon source does not an optimally happy biofilm make. Even so, the pic you posted speaks volumes, so the kind of maximization that I'm talking about may not be of interest to you. Similarly, if you're after the growth patterns and color "pop" of a ZEOvit system, you're going to have to confront ... dare I say it? ... metabolism. Strange that no one wants to give Mr. Pohl his due credit in this area.
To get at "tweaking" the metabolism, you're going to need more than an inert colonization media, a carbon source, unknown amino acids, and "food". You're going to need ions that participate in cellular osmoregulation, electron donors, and enzyme & cofactor precursors ...
... and the means to deliver them.
JMO ... HTH ... Out.
:thumbsup:
Last edited:
sailfintang
Member
So would these mean adding the Phols' solutions into the tank and if so which ones woudl be best for the job.
Also by running a starved nutrient system will any of my softer corals be affected like, Xenia and some mushrooms?
On a side note has anyone purchased anything from Custom Aquatics recently they had the best prices on some alternative addidtives I was gonna use that Zedar recommended but there web protection is using an old WEP security and it states my personal info could be snagged. Just want to know so I can figure out where else to shop if they are not up to date with the latest security protection.
Not at all. I welcome your opinion. I may not understand half of it, but your opinion is always welcome
So are you saying that these IOB and SRB (that almost sounds like I'm cursing)
are utilizing/liberating Fe and S from the zeolites? Are you implying that there is more Fe and D in Zeo systems? Bear with me I'm a computer geek not a biohead
Thanks
I've taken glassbox's advice.
http://glassbox-design.com/2008/achieved-through-observation-and-experimentation/
I'm currently using his mix with good results.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12141857#post12141857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
To get at "tweaking" the metabolism, you're going to need more than an inert colonization media, a carbon source, unknown amino acids, and "food". You're going to need ions that participate in cellular osmoregulation, electron donors, and enzyme & cofactor precursors ...
... and the means to deliver them.
JMO ... HTH ... Out.
:thumbsup:
So its your belief that the zeolites provide this? Or just the Zeo supplements?
Canarygirl
New member
that's how I interpret Gary's statement...that it's the zeolites that provide the delivery method--via their release of mulm during daily shaking of the stones, I infer.
Greetings All !
What works within your DIY configurations? ... hehe ... you tell me. :lol:
A couple of weeks ago I was talking with Eric at FragFarmer & zeovitusa, and his recommendation regarding which product (and in what sequence) struck me as fundamentally correct ... one at a time. Given the situation where the nutrient reduction-export "core" (... skimmer, reactor, passive GAC, media, bacterial inoculant, and carbon source(s) ...) is up and running, and the water chemistry tests out at around ...
NH3/NH4 = ~ 0 ppm
NO2 = ~ 0 ppm
NO3 = > 5 ppm
pH = 7.7 - 8.4
... with these stabilized at ...
T = 79 - 81 F
dKH = 6.5 - 8.5
Ca = 400 - 450 ppm
Mg = 1250 - 1350
K = ~ 350 - 450
... it's acceptable to start manipulating. One last set of pre-manipulation comments ... as far as dKH, Ca, and Mg go, I don't see any reason to pay for either Euro-Dollar exchange, or freight charges across The Pond ... choose your favorite domestics, or mix up your own a la Dr. Holmes-Farley guidelines.
As far as direct manipulations go, potassium still has me pondering. While potassium salts are what they are, the early reports of ground-up health store pills containing KCl leave me concerned (... although folks like Bebo77 and a few others seem to have finally worked it out). Until I've had a chance to fool around with the Warner Marine blend (I have great cost savings hopes, given the general quality of this product line), my personal choice is to use the Korallen-Zucht K-Strong. Even so, the potassium test kits currently available leave me questioning their validity, so I must confess that I'm not entirely confident as to what degree of manipulation I'm actually doing. You pays your money, and you takes your chances ... your mileage will vary.
As I balance out the K level, I incorporate a potassium iodide source into the mix ... my personal choice is the Korallen-Zucht PIF concentrate, but other less expensive KI mixtures should, in theory, be acceptable. I know, I know ... I concede to the assertion that iodide supplementation is a waste of time and money that also has the potential to screw up the morphogenesis ("molting") cycle of any crustaceans that are present. All I can describe is what I have personal experience with ... I've never had any problems with it ... reports of positive benefits for both Xenia and Cespitulata specimens persist ... your mileage will vary.
The other elemental manipulation that I'm most concerned with is Fe. My personal favorite is the KZ Fe concentrate, but other less expensive Fe supplements should, in theory, be acceptable. Indeed, there's an argument to be made that a less powerful supplement is more appropriate. If Zedar's assertion that the DIY matrix-bacteria-vodka configuration is simply "less aggressive" and doing "the same thing" as the ZEOvit "basic 4" ... then it strikes me that a less powerful Fe supplement might be in order. While I disagree that what's going on at the bacteria guild level is the same, I concede to the logic.
JMO ...
All that being ranted, on the the fun stuff ... amino acids. The picture that Zedar posted presents what I think of as the "pastel phase", and Zedar is quite insightful and correct in choosing to supplement amino acids in response. My personal choice is the KZ amino acid concentrate, but it seems to me that there are alternatives that don't suffer from Euro exchange rate, and freight charges. I'm looking forward to reading other folks' posts regarding their use of such alternatives.
I believe that there is a fundamental synergy between amino acids and iron. AA & Fe supplements are simultaneously acting on different sets of life forms in our system ... corals, algae, and bacteria. While it is tempting to think of AA and Fe suplements as acting solely on zooxanthellae, what the user sees in the response of bacterial and microalgae populations are diagnostic. Biofilm & microalgae "blooms" are indications of over-dosing, and are very helpful to me as I "dial-in" a dosing regiment.
JMO ...
sailfintang ... you also asked about the full suite of KZ supplements, and which ones do what. While I have a lot to say about this, now is not the time ... particularly as folks contemplate DIY supplement regiments. While the KZ Coral Vitalizer (...ROTFL ... could a worse name have been chosen for the American marketplace? ...), Sponge Power, and Pohl's Xtra (formerly "Gold") all strike me as intriguing contestants in the "nutrient game", it also occurs to me that Fauna Marin also has some interesting products, particularly their Ultra-Trace & Ultra Power-Trace series. It seems to me that, as long as we're not talking about core components of the nutrient reduction-export configuration, a mixing & matching combination exploration involving these two product lines might actually be quite interesting. But a word of caution ... Mr. Pohl and Mr. Schuhmacher come at the supplement formulation "thing" from entirely different angles. While Mr. Pohl prefers relatively few components within each product, Mr. Schuhmacher prefers many components within each product. As a result, mixing these product lines has the potential to result in an excess of a particular component ... this could potentially be quite nasty, particularly if heavy metal ions are involved.
Also ... "carrier" and "delivery" products. I find the whole set of KZ Coral Snow, FM Ultra-Life, and FM Ultra-Pak products to be fascinating, innovative, and potentially quite useful. Indeed, one (or more) of these products might very well be something a DIYer might choose to deliver their personal supplement mixes to system inhabitants.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
While I personally much prefer the Korallen-Zucht product line to the alternatives, one of the wonderful things about the DIY configuration(s) that you and Zedar are talking about is the opportunity for experimentation.
What works within your DIY configurations? ... hehe ... you tell me. :lol:
A couple of weeks ago I was talking with Eric at FragFarmer & zeovitusa, and his recommendation regarding which product (and in what sequence) struck me as fundamentally correct ... one at a time. Given the situation where the nutrient reduction-export "core" (... skimmer, reactor, passive GAC, media, bacterial inoculant, and carbon source(s) ...) is up and running, and the water chemistry tests out at around ...
NH3/NH4 = ~ 0 ppm
NO2 = ~ 0 ppm
NO3 = > 5 ppm
pH = 7.7 - 8.4
... with these stabilized at ...
T = 79 - 81 F
dKH = 6.5 - 8.5
Ca = 400 - 450 ppm
Mg = 1250 - 1350
K = ~ 350 - 450
... it's acceptable to start manipulating. One last set of pre-manipulation comments ... as far as dKH, Ca, and Mg go, I don't see any reason to pay for either Euro-Dollar exchange, or freight charges across The Pond ... choose your favorite domestics, or mix up your own a la Dr. Holmes-Farley guidelines.
As far as direct manipulations go, potassium still has me pondering. While potassium salts are what they are, the early reports of ground-up health store pills containing KCl leave me concerned (... although folks like Bebo77 and a few others seem to have finally worked it out). Until I've had a chance to fool around with the Warner Marine blend (I have great cost savings hopes, given the general quality of this product line), my personal choice is to use the Korallen-Zucht K-Strong. Even so, the potassium test kits currently available leave me questioning their validity, so I must confess that I'm not entirely confident as to what degree of manipulation I'm actually doing. You pays your money, and you takes your chances ... your mileage will vary.
As I balance out the K level, I incorporate a potassium iodide source into the mix ... my personal choice is the Korallen-Zucht PIF concentrate, but other less expensive KI mixtures should, in theory, be acceptable. I know, I know ... I concede to the assertion that iodide supplementation is a waste of time and money that also has the potential to screw up the morphogenesis ("molting") cycle of any crustaceans that are present. All I can describe is what I have personal experience with ... I've never had any problems with it ... reports of positive benefits for both Xenia and Cespitulata specimens persist ... your mileage will vary.
The other elemental manipulation that I'm most concerned with is Fe. My personal favorite is the KZ Fe concentrate, but other less expensive Fe supplements should, in theory, be acceptable. Indeed, there's an argument to be made that a less powerful supplement is more appropriate. If Zedar's assertion that the DIY matrix-bacteria-vodka configuration is simply "less aggressive" and doing "the same thing" as the ZEOvit "basic 4" ... then it strikes me that a less powerful Fe supplement might be in order. While I disagree that what's going on at the bacteria guild level is the same, I concede to the logic.
JMO ...
All that being ranted, on the the fun stuff ... amino acids. The picture that Zedar posted presents what I think of as the "pastel phase", and Zedar is quite insightful and correct in choosing to supplement amino acids in response. My personal choice is the KZ amino acid concentrate, but it seems to me that there are alternatives that don't suffer from Euro exchange rate, and freight charges. I'm looking forward to reading other folks' posts regarding their use of such alternatives.
I believe that there is a fundamental synergy between amino acids and iron. AA & Fe supplements are simultaneously acting on different sets of life forms in our system ... corals, algae, and bacteria. While it is tempting to think of AA and Fe suplements as acting solely on zooxanthellae, what the user sees in the response of bacterial and microalgae populations are diagnostic. Biofilm & microalgae "blooms" are indications of over-dosing, and are very helpful to me as I "dial-in" a dosing regiment.
JMO ...
sailfintang ... you also asked about the full suite of KZ supplements, and which ones do what. While I have a lot to say about this, now is not the time ... particularly as folks contemplate DIY supplement regiments. While the KZ Coral Vitalizer (...ROTFL ... could a worse name have been chosen for the American marketplace? ...), Sponge Power, and Pohl's Xtra (formerly "Gold") all strike me as intriguing contestants in the "nutrient game", it also occurs to me that Fauna Marin also has some interesting products, particularly their Ultra-Trace & Ultra Power-Trace series. It seems to me that, as long as we're not talking about core components of the nutrient reduction-export configuration, a mixing & matching combination exploration involving these two product lines might actually be quite interesting. But a word of caution ... Mr. Pohl and Mr. Schuhmacher come at the supplement formulation "thing" from entirely different angles. While Mr. Pohl prefers relatively few components within each product, Mr. Schuhmacher prefers many components within each product. As a result, mixing these product lines has the potential to result in an excess of a particular component ... this could potentially be quite nasty, particularly if heavy metal ions are involved.
Also ... "carrier" and "delivery" products. I find the whole set of KZ Coral Snow, FM Ultra-Life, and FM Ultra-Pak products to be fascinating, innovative, and potentially quite useful. Indeed, one (or more) of these products might very well be something a DIYer might choose to deliver their personal supplement mixes to system inhabitants.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
Greetings All !
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
Remembering that I don't have the hard data to back this up, and that therefore what you're reading might well be useless jibberish from someone who has read one too many abstracts (the cognitive equivalent of playing too many football games without a helmet) ... yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12144132#post12144132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
... So are you saying that these IOB and SRB (that almost sounds like I'm cursing)
Remembering that I don't have the hard data to back this up, and that therefore what you're reading might well be useless jibberish from someone who has read one too many abstracts (the cognitive equivalent of playing too many football games without a helmet) ... yes, that's exactly what I'm implying.
Just the ZEOsupplements.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
sailfintang
Member
Well tthis is turning into a great thread and has lots of gtreat info to help me in my decisions. Hope it helps others in the same way. Now to dig up some $$$ to order some of these supplies. Zeovit usa said they would give me 10% off my first order since thye have no bulk backages or starter kits preassembled. So thats good.
mesocosm:
Are you running a Zeo system? have any pics if so?
mesocosm:
Are you running a Zeo system? have any pics if so?
Canarygirl
New member
+1
Gary, have you achieved the kind of success with color enhancement that people like Iwan and JProstrata and G.Alexander (and many other zeoheads...not me though
) have done? I find the whole probiotic systems thing to have a pretty steep learning curve--or maybe it's just trying to figure out the effects and interactions between the KZ supplements that is so challenging.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12144855#post12144855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canarygirl
+1
I find the whole probiotic systems thing to have a pretty steep learning curve--or maybe it's just trying to figure out the effects and interactions between the KZ supplements that is so challenging.
And thats what makes this such a great hobby. Dont cha think?
sailfintang
Member
Agreed the many variations and methods are endless as to what could be done. It can only get better and more complicated from here.
DARKSILENTTYPE
New member
Mesocosm
I have a question for you . K = potassium so why can't potassium cloride be used to mix up your own K balance mix ?
Can or should I say will you ( Mesocosm is a very smart guy ) tell me the pros and cons of this theory .
John
I have a question for you . K = potassium so why can't potassium cloride be used to mix up your own K balance mix ?
Can or should I say will you ( Mesocosm is a very smart guy ) tell me the pros and cons of this theory .
John
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12144410#post12144410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
What works within your DIY configurations? ... hehe ... you tell me. :lol:
Hopefully I'll find out. ... soon!!!
I used the potassium chloride.. It required near a whole bottle before i started seeing results.
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=777&at=0
I also believe the tests are unreliable. I read a response from Bob "on the Zeo site" about the signs of OD'ing K+ and used that as my gauge for when to stop. I know KCl is not the same as K+ but thats how i did it.
I also used lugols solution at the recommended dosage to balance the KCl
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12144410#post12144410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
The other elemental manipulation that I'm most concerned with is Fe. My personal favorite is the KZ Fe concentrate, but other less expensive Fe supplements should, in theory, be acceptable. Indeed, there's an argument to be made that a less powerful supplement is more appropriate. If Zedar's assertion that the DIY matrix-bacteria-vodka configuration is simply "less aggressive" and doing "the same thing" as the ZEOvit "basic 4" ... then it strikes me that a less powerful Fe supplement might be in order. While I disagree that what's going on at the bacteria guild level is the same, I concede to the logic.
JMO ...
I used Kents Iron supplement but im going to try something else.
Probably Zeo. Maybe i should double the dose?
I tried the seachem AA's But they made my skimmer overflow. I had to turn it off for a DAY when I dosed.
They also didnt seem to do much. It was suggested that I double the dose !!! NO WAY!!!
So I started Zeo's AA's two days ago, and already the increased PE is noticeable. Incredible !!!
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12144410#post12144410 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
I believe that there is a fundamental synergy between amino acids and iron. AA & Fe supplements are simultaneously acting on different sets of life forms in our system ... corals, algae, and bacteria. While it is tempting to think of AA and Fe suplements as acting solely on zooxanthellae, what the user sees in the response of bacterial and microalgae populations are diagnostic. Biofilm & microalgae "blooms" are indications of over-dosing, and are very helpful to me as I "dial-in" a dosing regiment.
JMO ...
Good Info I'll keep this in mind... Thanks
I'll leave the technical to meso... but i can answer your question from first hand experience.
http://www.iherb.com/ProductsList.aspx?c=1&cid=1841
I used this at two teaspoons a day. i dosed it for a week. Within two days i noticed the pocco returning to its original color. My green slimer has become darker. blue tipped stag now has bright blue tips . In the pic you/ll notice the tips are pale blue.
Still waiting on the rest, but im hopeful.
DARKSILENTTYPE
New member
I have about 5 bottles of the same product . I also have the K test kit from zeovit . I tested my water last night and I'm at 225 . I will start adding this product to my tank and check levels daily to see how much it takes to raise K in my tank water volume about 150 gallons .
Thanks
John
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