Zoa question for Genius's

[aquamanpc24]

So I have multiple tanks, all in one system. Current Tanks
210 Fowlr
135 Reef
150 Softie reef/fowlr
72 bow banggai breed tank
55 kelp/chaeto fuge
150 Horsetrough primary sump with mangroves
150 Horsetrough secondary sump assorted filters
12 nano drilled and led swapped

Tank Parems on a regular
1.026 salinity
temp varies 76-78 per season, but is always a slow change as volume is so large
ph 8.3 constant night and day
Ca 420
Dkh 11.5
Mg 1290
Po4 0-.03
No3 2-5 ppm
o2 8mg/l
Courtesy of salifert test kits
Lighting
currently reefs are lit by radions and fowlr by dimmable onyx's
they just replaced MH and t5's (I say this since I have tried from pc-t5-mh-leds) all with same results
Calcium reactor keeps my chemistry constant
2 skimmers
SRO5000 that is fed by a bio churn reactor
and MRC MR6R
55 watt and 35 watt uv sterilizer
two little fishies mini reactor with 1/4 full phoszorb (so understocked)
2 bags of chemipure elite
WATER CHANGES: every week 55 gallons. currently instant ocean but have used every salt known to man. lol
flow is provided by 3 mp60's and 8 mp40's throught tanks.

Coral inhabitants: many montis, chalices, euphylia species, goniopora, acans, pectinas, millipora to highlight some of the stuff in my system, or stuff I have kept and traded over the years.

** I read A.Grandis comment on phosphate media and led opinions and I am not discounting them, just adding a note that I have failed keeping zoas without the media and with every form of aquatic lighting we have at our disposal! **
WHAT HAPPENS:
Any zoa I get will be open for a day, and then never open again. I have so many tanks, so I do try fish-less tanks, rock less tanks, full of live rock tanks and all get exactly the same results. I have purchased zoas from many lfs or getting it from friends that have healthy species.
SORRY IT WAS SO LENGTHY, but I do not want to leave anything out and I want to try and find and answer.

 

[aquamanpc24]

p.s. a side note after failing multiple times, I hate killing anything so I only got pieces of frags and tried a couple polyps at a time. My friends benefited since they got the full colonies and or the polyps that didn't open for me and always do well. Just pointing out that I am not the guy who says I dont have luck or cant keep this fish and then buy them over and over again! I hate those guys. I am just trying to rule out problems.

 

[A. Grandis]

Well, the reason I'm replying to the thread is because I was referred, at least in regards to my light and phosphate removers' suggestions in other threads. I just want to make sure I'm not labeled as a Genius at all, once I'm responding! LOL!

Actually, you weren't lengthy enough!
With so many connected systems, the variables are huge and based on the info you passed I can only guess a little. Just a little...
The suggestions I would give to you would be mostly related to water chemistry.

It's good to have 2 skimmers, specially if they are located distant from each other in the loop. Perhaps those skimmers aren't still sufficient to deal with all those systems.

Would I suggest to keep those MHs/T5s instead the LEDs? Oh yes!
What about the phosphate media? Yep, I would remove them.
Those suggestions are independent of the problem of keeping the zoas open, once you already posted the problem was there before, but those would be out of the way in the case you find out what's preventing the zoas to thrive in such complex connected system IMO.

I don't want people to think that I'm totally against LEDs or GFOs. As I've posted many times the reason to avoid the LEDs is simply because they aren't better than mHs or T5s. The waste of time when figuring them out is another reason. The GFOs aren't really necessary for any type of reef when well planned and maintained, besides having the chance to screw up with zoas and corals' health when misused. And it's unnecessary in most reef systems anyway.

In your case, besides going back to the MH/T5s and removing the phosphate media independently, I would look into the water chemistry.

I would bring the Mg up a little, like 1350. I'm not a fan of mangroves and algae to remove nitrates/phosphates either. They are also unnecessary and will make your water yellow, actually polluting the whole systems in the long run. GAC will help, but all the GAC will do is to remove the yellow and get saturated fast. Waste of money. Removing the algae and mangroves will help the GAC to act on other smaller chemicals and last longer. Mangroves won't clean the water, but are polluters.

There is so much to look for in a huge connected system like yours, that's not even funny.

If you could post some pictures we would be able o have a visual idea of what that is, and perhaps tat could help a little more.

There are some basic things to be followed when keeping zoas healthy in a closed system. When we connect that system to others and bring the chemistry in, the common denominator of the whole thing will be a mixing and the variables are multiplied.

Im sure others will be here to give their suggestions to you, and that's what I hope!
I'm afraid to say that I didn't meet any zoa genius yet. I know lots of hobbyists and scientists, but not geniuses.

Hopefully we'll find out what the problem is.
Please extend the list of information and past observations related to the times you have tried zoas, if possible.
Please note that people tend to help more when they see pictures...

Grandis.

 

[aquamanpc24]

ty for reply grandis, I quoted you not as a genius, but it seems like you are an authority in this sub forum. So I respect your input.
I have a few questions for you? how are mangroves bad for reefs or saltwater? Almost positive they are more than beneficial for natural reefs? (just curious)
As far as gfo and phosphate media, that is a relatively new endeavor.(EDIT I am also using an amount suggested for 35-55 gallons) No side or ill effects on coral poyps. Chemipure and the phosphate media was all things I started using after reading it as suggestions for keeping zoas. As far as led's go vs metal halides I will continue to use leds after seeing growth explosion, polyp extension and electric savings that will benefit real mother nature as well as my wallet. But again I have tried zoas when it was a simple tank with t5+mh before I bought a house. before using a calcium reactor and before I had the stabilty of my controller. Before mangroves, before phosphate reactors. Same results.

that is why when I wrote my expansive post I thought I would highlight that, and say there needs to be another thing, another key ingredient I am missing. At the end of the day I have success and recognize many approaches equals healthy setups, I have found the setup that works for my collection of fish and current corals. zoas may just be my kryptonite and I am not happy about it, but I am not going to tear up what I have or maybe stress corals out by changing it up. I will add some mg to my reactor and bring it up a little. slowly of coarse.

I do appreciate your input though. side note what kind of filtration do you use. what is your approach? I always love reading peoples filtration and setups, see what ways other people get success. its a great underwater experiment

 

[A. Grandis]

ty for reply grandis, I quoted you not as a genius, but it seems like you are an authority in this sub forum. So I respect your input.

You're very welcome! I don't consider myself an authority either. I'm just a simple hobbyist, like everyone else here and in many other forums. We're all the same here: crazy for zoanthids. :thumbsup:
My observations in regards to the term "genius" was more towards the fact that many people wouldn't respond the thread just because it was directed to the "zoa genius". I do hope more people to give their input and try to help you out. Some times we all keep waiting for that genius or whatever they are called and nobody wants to post first. LOL!!!

I have a few questions for you? how are mangroves bad for reefs or saltwater? Almost positive they are more than beneficial for natural reefs? (just curious)

Ok, why are you using mangroves if you're only almost positive?

I didn't say they are actually "bad for reefs" (tanks or natural), but that "I'm not a fan of mangroves". I already explained why, and I quote myself:

"...I'm not a fan of mangroves and algae to remove nitrates/phosphates either. They are also unnecessary and will make your water yellow, actually polluting the whole systems in the long run. GAC will help, but all the GAC will do is to remove the yellow and get saturated fast. Waste of money. Removing the algae and mangroves will help the GAC to act on other smaller chemicals and last longer. Mangroves won't clean the water, but are polluters."

Mangroves are beneficial for natural reefs in a sense that they will block sedimentation and will give some safe environment for some species of fishes, for example, with a unique habitat. To compare that to a close system isn't very wise IMO. Nature will be always a very, very different story than our closed systems in many aspects, as we know well. The main and definitive aspect, referring to mangroves, is the volume of water in the ocean, tides and currents, are mainly responsible for the natural balance of such ecosystem. That's why it works. Geographic area plays with that as well as seasonal, climate and other natural phenomena.

In closed systems like ours, mangroves and algae will possibly collaborate to the nutrient binding into substrates and yellowing of the water by organic leachates. Some of those leachates could have some toxic compounds to corals, while others could be actually beneficial/nutritious to certain extend for the corals, when in small/controllable amounts. Such excess of nutrients is unnecessary for a successful reef tank, once similar nutrients come from other sources like food and additives. Also fishes could be affected by some of the organic compounds released by some algae and mangroves.
Another important observation is the changing of spectrum due to the presence of those yellow organic compounds in the water.
In another aspect, the nutrients taken by the algae and mangroves could affect the nutrient pool that actually would be beneficial to zooxanthellae.

I just don't see any benefits using mangroves and algae to eliminate/control algae nutrients (AKA phosphates/nitrates) in closed systems, if that's what you're looking for. Well, that's why people normally have them.
You can continue to use the skimmer and GAC for that purpose, along with partial water changes, with stable water parameters and maintenance schedule.

But please don't change your systems if you are skeptical of what I'm writing here. I'm just trying to eliminate the points and find the solution for you zoa problem. This would be what I would do if it was my system.
Perhaps others would do differently?
I would love to hear from them and learn what other important aspects would come before the removal of algae and mangroves in order to solve the problem in any connected system like yours.
Now, my questions to you are:

1) Why do you have the algae and the mangroves in the system?
2) Have you reached your goal keeping them?
3) Could you have a simpler system with same or better results, less maintenance cleaning the skimmer and save money using less GAC and doing less volumes of water changes?
4) How many people actually would really need the presence of algae and mangroves for that "perfect nutrient balance" in their closed systems?
5) Is that the best approach?

The questions above aren't only related to keep zoanthids in closed systems, but as a general rule for reef keeping, including SPS corals.

As far as gfo and phosphate media, that is a relatively new endeavor.(EDIT I am also using an amount suggested for 35-55 gallons) No side or ill effects on coral poyps. Chemipure and the phosphate media was all things I started using after reading it as suggestions for keeping zoas.

Not my suggestions though. But that's perfectly fine, of course. We all have our preferences and decisions.
I do recommend ChemiPure as one of the best ways to use GAC.
Please let me know where the suggestion of the using phosphate media for zoas came from, would you?
I'm just thinking that it could be from an important article or something like that, so I can read and learn more about it too.

As far as led's go vs metal halides I will continue to use leds after seeing growth explosion, polyp extension and electric savings that will benefit real mother nature as well as my wallet.

Great!!! I see you have your mind set on that too. And I wish you good luck in the long run!

But again I have tried zoas when it was a simple tank with t5+mh before I bought a house. before using a calcium reactor and before I had the stabilty of my controller. Before mangroves, before phosphate reactors. Same results.

that is why when I wrote my expansive post I thought I would highlight that, and say there needs to be another thing, another key ingredient I am missing.

I know that. I understood.
Well please tell us more about it.
There must be something missing then...

There could be a handful of "missing ingredients" and with so many variables that with such connected system would be basically very hard to find out by just talking story in a forum like this.
I know it's kinda frustrating, but just keep in mind that many people come here with their zoa problems like that and some times they have a system only for zoas without algae and mangroves. Sometimes it's just too many things to look for and not being able to change some aspects it would make it more difficult overall.

I'm also not saying that the mangroves and presence of algae in the system are the reason. NO, no, no"¦ I'm saying that it could be part of the reason"¦ Main thing is that they are not necessary. We know systems with great zoa collection and beautiful colonies that have mangroves and algae.
Here is one of the best examples:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1896006

So I'm not here to put any rule. Who am I?!? LOL!! I just need you to understand.
Please read the thread and you'll see lots of good info there.

I'm excluding the possibilities of predation, irritation and infections here, assuming the colonies to be healthy when introduced in your systems, and dipped prior to introduced in the system.
We'll need much more info then"¦
Have you been reading threads here and there? Some times we find out things in old threads by accident and we connect to out systems, fixing the problem. Just a thought...

At the end of the day I have success and recognize many approaches equals healthy setups, I have found the setup that works for my collection of fish and current corals. zoas may just be my kryptonite and I am not happy about it, but I am not going to tear up what I have or maybe stress corals out by changing it up. I will add some mg to my reactor and bring it up a little. slowly of coarse.

No, absolutely. It's your system, so...

I do appreciate your input though. side note what kind of filtration do you use. what is your approach? I always love reading peoples filtration and setups, see what ways other people get success. its a great underwater experiment

You're very welcome!
My filtration lies on artificial live rocks, skimmer and GAC, when needed.
I export nutrients and wastes every 2 weeks with partial water changes also.
The numbers for my systems are pretty much average:
Ca: 380-420
Alk: 7 - 9
Mg: ~1350
PO4: undetectable.
NO3: undetectable.

There is no genius among us, so please post your thoughts, people!! :wave:

Cheers,
Grandis.

 

[aquamanpc24]

1) Why do you have the algae and the mangroves in the system?
I started growing chateo to provide pods for my reef and for my mandarin. Ultimately it grew to, I needed to remove it since it grew so fast, and I was trading it at lfs for stuffz! free stuffz! and since I never saw anything but positive I decided not to stop
Mangroves, I love mangroves I love rhizoprangle mangle. I am actually an avid keeper of white black and red mangroves, although not all of them are in my salt system. I also have a fresh system where I finally was able to ascertain camu camu seeds and got germination! very excited. Back to the point. When I first started with mangroves, was my first fowlr. I had less experience and needed big time direction on my system. Imagine my ignorance to realize the internet had way more options and better ones for filters! N e ways, the po4 was always erratic, never where I wanted to be, I read an article pointing out natures filters and ordered some from ebay. Next thing you know I had 24" tall pods growing and po4 was unmeasurable. I was attached at the heart I love them. From spraying them daily to watching the livestock and crazy things grow off their roots! So that is why I was taken back by comments saying they were negative. (p.s. that was when I had no luck with zoas and I was not using mangroves in same system) but again water quality was not exactly my best stuff Albeit I still have the hammer from that system and I am told they are hard to keep to some people.


2) Have you reached your goal keeping them?
I am perfectly happy with my reef and fowlr systems, and the breeding of banggais and just started up a frag tank, I might be big leagues soon! j/k but honestly my beef with zoas just had me curious. I am not interested in killing corals for sport, so I recognize some corals wont be happy with my care, or water quality and I accept it. Only attempts were trial and errors since friends wanted zoas and I would frag a head or 2 off them, or use my tank for a 2 day period and see if anything changed (that was a while ago)

3) Could you have a simpler system with same or better results, less maintenance cleaning the skimmer and save money using less GAC and doing less volumes of water changes?

At this point my reefs are not the big bio loads! and honestly my system is fairly easy maintenance wise, which may be a burden to others but seems easy and straight forward for me. I setup simple systems for people regularly as local people usually run things by me, or bounce ideas off of me. I never thought to use them as my zoa problem, **good idea** lol Ill buy them a zoa once their tank is cycled.

4) How many people actually would really need the presence of algae and mangroves for that "perfect nutrient balance" in their closed systems?
Not sure, I never saw negative side effects (obviosuly if it kills zoas that could be one) but again current livestock is happy. I could see gfo killing zoas way before I would connect mangroves to zoas. just really seems odd.


5) Is that the best approach?
its my approach. I know many people in this hobby as we all do. I see people do chemical only filtration, I see natural only filtration, and I see the people like me who pick and choose highlights from both sides.


I will find the article, it was in a fish mag, I dont want to definitively confirm "coral" magazine, as it could be a diff salt mag as I read all of them. I will read the article u posted later tonight. I really do appreciate this convo, and again I get there is no zoa genius, I just know you seemed to comment frequent, hence me quoting you specifically but I was addressing everyone.
if I dont get back to this again it is because I am getting together with family for the holiday so happy thanksgiving in advance to everyone!

 

[A. Grandis]

That's good! I see you're happy with the mangroves and algae then. I would say mangroves are one of the important organisms in your systems to you, and therefore they will more likely stay.
In my system the zoas are priority, so because of that the zoas would have to stay here. LOL!!
Yep, we all have different approaches and there is not only one way to keep a successful reef at home. That's for sure. Specially if it works with our schedule.

By what you posted until now my guess is that the problem with the zoas would be related to water chemistry. That's my inclination. Again, considering no predators, irritators or any type of the known infections. Specially knowing that you had T5s and MHs in the past with the same problem.

I'll be following this thread to see what others will post.
Perhaps someone out there has a system similar to yours and went through the same episode?

This is a good thread! :thumbsup:

Happy Thanksgiving!!
Grandis.

 

[terrypercula]

May be looking at this way to simply but have you ever played around with your water to find a sweet spot? For example have you ever lowered you DKH to the 8-9 mark to see if cerin corals were a little more happy?

 

[A. Grandis]

Normally the higher the dKH the better. Nitrates tend to decline alkalinity, so...
The system has nitrates 3-5, and some phosphates, not too bad, 0 to 0.3.
Nitrates should be maintained at less the 1 ppm!
That shows that the mangroves and algae aren't doing the job they were supposed to, OR that it could be much, much higher than that, if they are actually doing their job removing plant nutrients from the water. But he likes his algae and mangroves a lot, so...

Grandis.

 

[aquamanpc24]

What do u guys think about zeovit? Not nesc for my system but I have seen zeovit used in zoa tanks too

 

[bazeball05]

Zeo is good for sps because it helps create ultra low nutrients system. (Don't hate if I oversimplified that) but I honestly do not think that will help with zoas.

 

[bazeball05]

Which tank would you stuck the zoas in?

 

[A. Grandis]

What do u guys think about zeovit? Not nesc for my system but I have seen zeovit used in zoa tanks too

Totally unnatural and weird to me. Even for SPS only systems.
Colors of the SPS aren't like that in nature!
Unpleasant and too artificial to my eyes.
Expensive and dependable of their product for life.
One of the "money machines" in the hobby.
Hype, fashion.

Not judging and trying to discuss about it.
Just my own opinion.
Everyone is different.

Not that I would recommend, but I would like to read about the relationship of zeovit/zoas though.
Do you have a link?

Grandis.

 

[aquamanpc24]

I was just wondering, I saw a sponsor having a sale on the starter kit. It is not for me, I was just wondering if since it is a predominantly sps if it would create a problem for zoas LPs and other softies. And a correction on my results from salifert, I always add a point or for like nitrates a group since I rather think I have room for improvement over my system is perfect. Happy tday all

 

[A. Grandis]

I was just wondering, I saw a sponsor having a sale on the starter kit. It is not for me, I was just wondering if since it is a predominantly sps if it would create a problem for zoas LPs and other softies. And a correction on my results from salifert, I always add a point or for like nitrates a group since I rather think I have room for improvement over my system is perfect. Happy tday all

I think zoas would be OK, like corals, but I was talking in general about the concept of the whole zeovit thing.
To tell the truth I would like to hear from other about zoas/zeovit.

Grandis.

 

[aquamanpc24]

pics of my system

 

[aquamanpc24]

and filtration

 

[charliet21]

Why not do a stand alone tank and see what happenes?.. i dont know it all,but u can find alot of lps,sps softies in shallow water. There are more deep water zoa/palys then shallow. Just a thought, but when was the last time u seen mangrooves in 50-90ft of water?

 

[A. Grandis]

and filtration

Lots of pipes"¦
Very complex system.
Lots of fun!!
:thumbsup:

Grandis.

 

[aquamanpc24]

I set up stand alone tanks for friends and customers at my day job, never have a problem with zoas. (on other tanks) Including a tank that he made a zoo garden. those are the people I get my zoo frags from. They utilize led setups, fuges with chaeto and mangroves. Some run gfo I know 1 guy who uses the zeovit stuff, crazy complex.
As far as mangroves, they are in coastal areas, none to my knowledge are in 50-90 Ft of water, but I could be wrong. Ultimately some of the most successful tanks use chaeto and mangroves. Most notably Julian Sprung's tank.
It is nothing but opinions when I see led or fuges, since almost all coral farms use leds and fuges, and they are the ones that are growing and bragging. I appreciate the ideas and options but I'm hoping to find someone that can tell me an element to specifically test for. Like grandis suggested my mg, I added more mg media to reactor.