10,000 Just for a Reef Tank? Does Cost always equate quality?

[asonitez]

Well My friend the LFS owner is truly a great guy and its the reason that I go to this shop and pay w/e price he charges for his equip. 90% of the time I don't even take change from him unless its big bills. If something is 8 bucks I give him a 10 spot and call it even. As a result over time I've accumulated so much credit that once I started my Saltwater tank I went in and faltered over purchasing a beautiful Juvie Yellow Tang and instead opted for the the single firefish I had money for. He bagged both up and gave it to me for no charge. I've seen him time and again listen so some person tell him how their tank is suffering while watching them pickup 80$ in chemicals and putting them on the counter. He simply pushed the chemicals to the side said do a 30% water change and and siphon your gravel. If your parameters are still out of wack in 2 days come back and then I'll sell you this stuff. They guy looked dumbfounded. However 2 days later in a routine stop through for some fat brine shrimp and mysis the same guy came in and thanked him for the advice tossed 20 bucks into the tip jar bought 2 gouramis and left. My friend just made a customer for life.

 

[Fiziksgeek]

Re: 10,000 Just for a Reef Tank? Does Cost always equate quality?

Speaking generally, more expensive items will be of better quality (either performance or materials or both). As with anything, there are always exceptions to the rules, and thats why I say its a general statement.

That being said, they are many people who feel that you NEED to have every high end piece of equipment on the market to maintain a quality system. This simply isn't true. Regular ol float glass is fine for most people, a calcium reactor isnt necessary for a lot of people, I seem to get along just fine with some digital timers, I don't need an expensive system controller. Would it be nice...sure thing...but it isn't necessary.

If this hobby was really as expensive as some people believe, they would be a lot less RC members! haha

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11729722#post11729722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by asonitez

The short and tall of this is that You don't NEED to spend ridiculous amounts of money on items toted as "quality" based on the already predisposed positions of people that bought said item because of others predisposed ideal of that becasue its expensive and totes a snazzy logo it must be the holy grail of that class of items.

 

[zotzer]

When I was in architecture school in the 80s, undergrads were not allowed to use the CAD machines. We had to design and draw everything by hand. This was a useful learning tool, actually laying down the ink! It helped us to *learn*.

I think many of the spendy reef items are designed to make reefing life easier. For now, in my first year, I LIKE that my system is more manual. Top offs, water changes, feeding, dosing...I do it all by hand. It has been a very "hands on" learning experience for me, and has helped hone my eye on the day-to-day needs of my tank.

Just about everything, aside from the koralia powerheads and lights, is used, but good quality. Very simple....a hob fuge and a hob skimmer. As I work my way up in the hobby, I envision spending more money on things that will make reef-keeping simpler, but they will be out of convenience, not necessity. I'll also have developed a feel for what is going on in the tank having done it by hand first.

Just like a CAD machine is an expensive, useful, and productive tool in Architecture, it's no replacement for learning to draw first, and the experience that brings.

Someone has an algae problem in the newb forum and one of the first answers will be "add a phosban reactor". Really? No questions asked about proper maintenance, a simple fuge, fancy bio-media that came with the tank, etc?

I have an appreciation for the big, gorgeous, expensive, hi-tech systems. One day, maybe I will be lucky enough to have one. For now, though, I keep it simple, do things by hand, and continue to learn. Works for me! YMMV

Tracy

 

[shred5]

Someone has an algae problem in the newb forum and one of the first answers will be "add a phosban reactor". Really? No questions asked about proper maintenance, a simple fuge, fancy bio-media that came with the tank, etc?



Tracy

I agree totally with this and I see it all the time... I have been in the hobby almost since the beggining and what has happened in this hobby is the equipment can make up for some poor maintenance and lack of knowlege sometimes. Allot of people are no longer interested in the biology behind the hobby but instead are more interested in collecting rare corals or showing off their expensive equipment. It has also lead to greed. Funny thing is they will eventually be out of the hobby anyway. An efficient skimmer and a phosban reactor will only get you so far.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11737074#post11737074 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lucky-rc
I am right there with you... I dont add any thing to my tank. If it is lacking anything I just increase my water change. This is the cheapest and the best way. IMO
Lucky

Only if you have a small tank. If you have a large tank it could take a very large water change and salt aint cheap. If you have a high demand on calcium you may have to do large water changes everyday to keep up with calcium demand and who wants to do that. Additives are not cheap too. Plus a calcium reactor adds stability. Over time a calcium reactor on a large tank will easily pay for itself.


Dave

 

[Neptune777]

For me I purchased top of the line stuff for my system for a couple reasons:

1) Didn't want to buy equipment that was inexpensive but potentially could fail. Then spend even more money for reliable equipment. Some of the inexpensive stuff might be great but is not proven to be reliable long term....time will tell.

2) Many beautiful long term reefs out there with the top shelf equipment. Proof enough for me that the equipment they have tested for me works as advertised.

I'm not against cheap alternatives as long as they have proven to be as good or better than more expensive peers.

I also agree that the hobby is full of junk products and as with anything else "buyer beware" ....do research before you purchase.

 

[DrBegalke]

There are very few "always" in this hobby.

Interestingly, an average dog will cost more then $43,000 (£22,000) over its lifetime (in the UK).

http://www.k9magazine.com/viewarticle.php?sid=15&&vid=0&npage=&aid=1100

 

[asonitez]

The most shocking thing I have ever noticed is the shape that some people get into with their tanks when its crashing. A lot of people invest in some serious equip only to be caught out in the dark when it fails because they never knew how to do some of the simpilest things or how to make do without a calcium reactor, phosban reactor, carbon reactor, and a slew of other equip.

Over on the 3reef forum HELP! section a guy's tank was crashing hard. A mishap with a return hose got water on his powerstrips and fried some of his electronics.

No Return Pump
Power Heads
Skimmer
1 mag 5

65 gal tank

and he does not get paid for another 3 days.

The advice from people?

Borrow money buy amquel
Buy a new powerhead and mod it with sureflow mod
Buy a hob filter use that till funds become available
Buy Koralias
Buy This Additive
Buy That Additive
Buy this Additive and dilute it with tank water then add it



Know what I told him?

do a 10 Gallon - 15 gallon water chage depending on your paramaters every day / 1.5 day until you get paid. Put the working mag 5 in your tank near the bottom and point it against your LR slight up for surface disruption. If Heat is an issue for you put your glass cover back on and you should be fine until you get paid.

The guy did as was told and lost nothing.

 

[jimmyPx]

Awesome discussion.

I agree with many of you. Many of the water additives are either not needed or snake oil.

While most of us believe that a good quality skimmer is needed, do you really need to spend over $1000 for one for a 75 gallon tank ??

It is very true that you honestly could DIY most of this equipment (check out the DIY forum--it's awesome) for a fraction of the cost of commercially made stuff. But many people are not very handy, and/or don't have the time.

Another thing to remember is that many of the people on these boards have very successful careers that take up alot of their time (and pays for their Reefkeeping habit). Because of this, they buy alot of equipment and controllers to automate as much as possible because they don't have the time to do constant water changes or fiddle with the tank.

Personally, I travel a good bit with my job. My tank is looking great, but i just spent a bunch on upgrading my controller from a Lighthouse to an Aquatronica rig ?? Why?? Do I really need it or to spend that much money on a controller ?? The answer is that I can remotely monitor the tank and even have it setup with dosers and by turning gear off and on automatically to fix a problem when I am away. Thus I have piece of mind and can have a Reef tank AND be able to travel on business without worrying that my tank will crash.

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11737659#post11737659 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
For me I purchased top of the line stuff for my system for a couple reasons:

1) Didn't want to buy equipment that was inexpensive but potentially could fail. Then spend even more money for reliable equipment. Some of the inexpensive stuff might be great but is not proven to be reliable long term....time will tell.

That is true too and most of the time cheap does mean cheap. When you have the lives of these animals that are ripped from their homes in the ocean do you want to take a chance with thier lives?. Also all the money you spent on your livestock do you really want to trust it to cheap equipment?. Allot of times going cheap costs you more in the long term. That also does not mean the premium equipment can not have problems either. I have had problems with expensive stuff too... You are right research is important.

Like my purchase off the Odyssea fixture. I end up getting it and the lamps are cheap and I end up buying new lamps (additional cost). Then the fixture fails and I have to buy a better one later.


One thing to is ussually the good equipment comes with good customer service.Take tunze for example they have Roger., Anytime I have ever had a problem he has always taken care of the problem . Deltec has Doug. How many of the cheap companies even have forums on websites like rc? I am willing to pay extra for good customer service. Because without it you end up throwing the equipment away and having to buy something different.

Dave

 

[Ebisan]

There's cheap stuff and then there are inexpensive stuff that does the job well. I used to have an Odyssea MH fixture and got rid of it because the color of the bulbs did not look right (Hamilton, XMs, etc) with the ballast. My equipment has evolved from the cheap/inexpensive stuff to higher priced items. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would have just bought the higher priced items and saved money in the long run. My cheap stuff is sitting in boxes collecting dust.

I believe it costs money to attain a TOTM worthy system. I would like to see a TOTM with cheap stuff.

 

[techreef]

Totally on board with the opinions on this thread. That being said, you will pry my ATO and Reefkeeper II out of my cold, dead fingers. They make running/keeping my tank SO much less drudgery. I would recommend both to anyone starting the hobby who is running a system larger than 50G.

 

[dogstar74]

Mercedes weren't meant for The average person. Yet many average people would like to drive them. They put all kinds of amenities in them including reclining rear seats, coffee makers, and Bose stereo systems. They have electronically tinting windows in the sunroof to accomodate different tastes.

These things are put in there to keep people from having to stop at a quicky mart for the morning coffee. And yes it is a status symbol.

For better or for worse, some people just like the feel of a rolex. Point being, if you can get just as much pleasure at looking at your Solaris light, as you get by watching the coloration of the corals that you have develop, then you haven't wasted your money.

Some guys buy that cheap toilet paper that leaves your backside bleeding because it will do the job. I prefer to pamper myself with the double ply quilted. Is it necessary? No. But it's just something nice I do for myself.

Aaron

 

[seapug]

One social grace everyone needs to remember is not to talk about how much things you own cost, how much money you make, etc., Doesn't matter if your are talking about fishtanks, cars, boats, or beany babies. If you are talking to another "enthusiast" they will have an idea what you've spent without being told. If you are talking to someone who is not an "enthusiast," they will think you are stupid for wasting a bunch of money. Either way, it's tacky.

I do agree that keeping things simple is the way to go, but I would love to someday have a tank with an awesome ATO system, top of the line skimmer, AquaController, calcium reactor, 120 gallon inline refugium fragtank etc., etc. I see these things as ways to improve my tank and expand my hobby....BUT in the meantime I will perfect doing it "by hand" and will still enjoy it to the fullest.

Bottom line is a good looking tank looks good and a crappy looking tank is crappy, regardless of what's been spent on it.

 

[HoopsGuru]

Isn't this just another indicator of our society as a whole where money (earned and or spent) helps us achieve a status? We over indulge in everything, I don't see why reefing would be any different as we simply L-O-V-E technology....and boasting about it when in our possession. Pick an area...home theater, home decor, mp3 players, satellite radios, automobiles, real estate, tools....there are always different levels of pricing and features that revolve around perfomance and status. Really, accomplishing a task is really a sidenote to how you want to get there.

 

[asonitez]

Fair enough... One thing I think other reefers should do when offering advice to some one thats new or curious is to not take for granted that the person might not be able to afford what they are offering. Once when I was really new I posted about having a cheapo skimmer and was immediately told why did I waste my money on that pos use this one instead its the best and everyone uses it. Do not even hope to think your tank will be TOTM without it... What was it? A Euro-Reef skimmer 5x the cost of the cheapo (which I thought was expensive in itself)... I almost quit.

 

[dogstar74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11739354#post11739354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seapug
One social grace everyone needs to remember is not to talk about how much things you own cost, how much money you make, etc., Doesn't matter if your are talking about fishtanks, cars, boats, or beany babies. If you are talking to another "enthusiast" they will have an idea what you've spent without being told. If you are talking to someone who is not an "enthusiast," they will think you are stupid for wasting a bunch of money. Either way, it's tacky.

Here! Here! I couldn't agree more. While I really like to have people comment about how nice the tank looks, I really hate when people ask how much it costs.

Of course there is a real difference sometimes when people are really seeking advice on whether to buy something or not. For example: if someone needs to know what the cost difference of an A.G.E. 120 vs a 180 gallon tank. Then researching costs are part of the descision making process.

But when someone sees your tank, and whistles and says "How much did that cost ya?" Well I cringe and just try to come up with some witty comeback.

Asonitez: I also agree. That I have seen some really cool systems from some really unexpected places, and I am always flabberghasted by the tanks that are really simple and look Great! PaulB's tank for example is over 30 years old or something like that. He just goes down to the nearby beach and grabs a bucket of water for top offs. He uses torch heated bent PVC for rock structures, and broken bottles in the display. And yet things are healthy and happy. And his tank looks good to boot.

 

[USC-fan]

Aquatraders stuff is junk!

 

[RicGio]

I agree with the premise. If you know what you're doing AND do some research you can get top quality equipment for "middle of the road" prices. I'm not in this for the prestige of using name brand equipment. No Tunzes in my tank. I was able to build a 90G inwall with basement equipment room for under 4,000$. Stocking it will be another story!