100 gallons in the ocean reef?

[reefnetworth]

im courious? ive snorkled reefs in Aruba, Mexico, and just plain ole Florida. JK, ive never seen the amount of stuff people shove in their little oceans, in the wild. i dont use a protien skimmer, except during first stage of cycling. i always have a rule of 1" of fish to 5 gallons of reef, MAX. in 16 yrs. of this hobby ive seen alot of crap sold and a few good items i consider to be useful. i believe that the reef should kept real as it is in nature.
shove 100 people in a bus to live youre gonna have problems, so why do you do it in your tanks and expect things to coincide without any? i see some tanks here that are beautiful, and i know from experience its alot of work if you want something worth having. the bio-overload is tremendous and i dont understand why some people dont realize or seem to care about the true beauty of the natural reef.
my point is simple, the ocean uses the shore as its protien skimmer/DSB. air+H2o=foam. DSB hold the bacteria to break down nutrients and waste. tide comes in, takes it all back out.
in 16 yrs. ive never had a crash, i dont do H2o changes after initial cycle is complete. i syphon when needed and add alike. my bacteria feild handles the rest. i do on the other hand use a carbon filtration system in all six tanks and of course powerheads.
my DSB's are arag-alive 3-4" max. LR is Fiji, Kaelini, Tonga, Marshall Is., and some from Bahama Is. all in their perspective tanks. and i know im not the only one doing this but sometimes it seems that way. i dont hear of many on this site, not even R.H.F. the 30% believer. i know he's gonna laugh if he hears of this post and say "just wait, you'll be sorry" well, i hope that never happens.
please, feel free to argue your point and scream at your screen, while posting. i work nights, so, i'll be back tomarrow and fallowing year to read replies, comments and questions. hopefully this want get pulled, i'm printing a copy just in case. LOL!!!

Happy reefing and thank you all,
nano4brains aka John

 

[onereefnotenuf]

my 125's ratio is 1" per 8 gallons. I think if the ratio was 1" per 1000 gallons a tank would still be nowhere close to the natural bioload. We argue about "matching nature" but imo, with all tank's the fish in it are nowhere near nature's conditions no matter how large it is or how it is filtered. It is just a matter of how much more crowded than the ocean they are. I agree some people take it to extremes but if you have a tank no matter how large, you have an unnaturally high bioload and unnaturally cramped space.

 

[mmd]

nicely put, I would love to see photos in support of your position (what do your tanks look like)

 

[onereefnotenuf]

i am on my wife's comp. mine is down. i don't have any pics on this one right now but if you go to reeffrontiers i have a bunch of pics of my tank in the member showcase section. my thread is titled "my first reef tank" it has pics from when i first set it up until about a month ago or so. my screenname over there is reefaddict

 

[reefnetworth]

when i get rich im gonna get a dig. camera. my wife is wanting one for her b-day next mo. we have six kids (i know, weve heard em all) ive checked out photobucket it seems easy, ill see what we can do. onereefnotenuf, i like! not over crowded. im was thinkin of doing melevs closed system with a mag 350 im taking out of my sump. yours looks ssoooo much better and more profesional plumbing. im gonna incorporate (steal,lol) your idea.

 

[Atomahawk]

I'm really not certain what your point is, I have re read your post and I'm really guessing here. Fish tanks are fish tanks in my book. Yes lots of people over crowd their aquariums, but I would say that most people that would come here would know better than over crowding. Manageable levels of fish depends on the the persons experience and how much time they spend on their aquariums maintenence wise and yes the amount of money they spend on proper filtration etc. We will never have the dilution levels for organics in a closed system compaired to the ocean and the water chemistry involved is definetly more complex than what we have in aquariums. That dosn't mean that it's not feasable to keep fish healthy even though we don't come close to what the ocean offers.
Proof? Some people are doing a great job breeding fish in closed systems and the fish are doing well. So even though the ocean is the ideal model that we would love to reproduce, it dosn't mean that every fish family benifits from it's vastness. It's all relative.

 

[onereefnotenuf]

that wasn't my point at all. I get a little annoyed when people start talking about how duplicating nature is so important and trying to tell others their tank is making their fish"unhappy" because it is overcrowded(I am not insinuating the thread starter said this). my point is all of our tanks from 5 gals. to 5000 gals. are cramped compared to "nature". sure there are extremes and people do put too many fish in too small a tank but just because a person has one tang in a 300 gal. tank doesn't mean that fish is "comfortable". I think people say this stuff to make themselves feel better about keeping fish in a confined space. no one I know has been able to gauge the happiness of a fish and to me if a fish is healthy and eating well and growing, it is as "happy" as I can make it. what we do is no different than putting a tiger in a cage at the zoo. some zoo's have big cages and some don't but that animal is still confined unnaturally in every zoo. instead of trying to match the ocean which is impossible, just make the best environment for the fish we can and keep them healthy. just to clarify something, I have no problem morally or ethically with keeping the fish I have in the small tanks they are in. my bioload is the way it is because my corals grow better this way. if they would grow with more fish, you can bet I would be putting more fish in the tank until the water started to go south.

 

[ERICinFL]

You can't tell if your fish are happy? It's a constant party in my tank.:celeb1: Every morning when I wake up, I see little beer cans floating around and the reminants of a bon fire in the center (they've learned Sponge Bob's secret to underwater fire). Heck, yesterday, I found my Hippo Tang trying to slide his fin out from under my Maroon Clown without waking her and my Emerald Crab was looking a little ashamed of what he "may have done" with my Skunk Shrimp:eek2: . My Yellow Tang gets DTs around noon and the Wrasse brothers get excited when I walk by the tank with a beer:beer: . Yep... I know my fish are happy.

 

[Randall_James]

:lol: ERICinFL

 

[yeame]

why is everyone so concerned about nature ?? if u are that worried about it why do u have a fish tank its the most unethical thing we can do to take anything from the wild and put it in a cage . and as humans we get and do what we want
where did people come up with the 1"to 5g or 3-5 wats of light per gallon,ok now is this topwater fish or bottom fish does the amount of caves matter,what about the filteration matterthen we have lights you have to figure the depth of the tank the intensity of the lights the color spec of the light what angle the light is on the tank if the tank has a glass lid or on some lights a UV shield and then...................
Most people see that FISH CANT READ thats why everyone has their own way of doing things "that is the wright way!"

 

[jaymz101]

I have a few points...

1.We obviously cant reproduce nature......Its not possible. She has many times the space and resources. We do our best with what we have.

2.Reefs are extremely crowded environments. Every organism is canstantly fighting for space (see territorial fish, and chemical defenses in corals), food, and nutrients (reefs are some of the most efficient places in the world form this standpoint, thats why the water is so clear....there's very little in it).

3. I agree that some fish dont have the space they need or want but most of the reasons they need that much space (breeding, food, etc.) are (hopefully) taken care of by the reefer. As long as theyve got room to swim, grow, and arent pacing up and down the glass theyre probably fine.

 

[Teremei]

agree with what Jaymz said. I have watch some reef documentaries and a reef is not a fun place to live. Constant raids at night by hordes of shark and larger fish. Parrot fish eating your shelter away (corals), schools of tangs fighting other tangs for the little food that there is on the rocks. . Rockslides that can destroy entire reefs leaving 1000's of animals homeless. . .

All I know is that in my reef, all of my fish have an easy life. They are feed and made enough room to swim about, and cared and loved for. In my community tank, no one fish ever has to worry about being eaten, or chased out of his territory because all of my fish live together in harmony. It is not a lonely place either, many different species are there if they feel the need to socialize. And I swear they do. My Coral Beauty seems to like to chase the royal gramma back into the cave. The gramma plays peek-a-boo and tried to get the beauty to chase him again.

As long as we do not overcrowd our tanks, keep nice healthy water conditions, and good pairings of fish. There is nothing morally wrong about it at all.

 

[Teremei]

double post.

 

[stykthyn]

I prefer simple tanks myself, I dont like the tanks that are slammed full of fish and coral. I prefer to have 2 display fish(usually clowns but I did have an awseome flame angell harem once) and perhaps 1 or 2 large corals and let the biodiversity from the rock and live sand flourish. I find that the microfauna(sponges, featherdusters and colonial polyps) that make it in on the live rock far more interesting than cramming frags into all the free spaces I can find.

 

[reefnetworth]

if your gonna need pics to believe pull Paul B and his natural, no mechanical filtration reef,30+ yrs. go to reef chemistry forum and pull the one from 1978 thats still the same as it was then 28 yrs. ago, no mechanical filtration. REEF-ON!!!

 

[Paul B]

I'm really not certain what your point is, I have re read your post and I'm really guessing here. Fish tanks are fish tanks in my book.

I feel the same way, what is this post about? Is it about keeping too many fish in a tank? Too many corals?
I have been diving since the sixtees and not just in the Caribbean. In the South Pacific you will see wall to wall corals, but all the same type. The Caribbean looks different. As to fish load, thats easy. Inches to fish does not mean anything. A 6" pipefish is not the same as a 2" lionfish or a 1" frogfish.
My reef is overloaded with slightly too many fish. But they are fine, how do I know? Because they spawn all the time. If your fish are spawning or showing mating behavior they are healthy. If they are not, they are not healthy. Healthy fish do two things, eat and spawn. If all of your fish live out there normal life span which is between ten and 18 years they are fine. If you get no unexplained deaths or diseases, all is well. Jumping out is fine, it is an unfortunate fish defense and sometimes it happens in certain species (ex firefish).
I think I have about 15 fish in my 100 gallon reef, most of them are small but there is a moorish Idol that is full grown and eats three times a day much more than all of the other fish combined. I use a reverse UG filter and have since 1972.
If your reef is older than that, you can stop laughing now.
Fish load is wholly determined by your bacterial levels and the type of bacteria you have. If you have always used ASW and your tank is a few years old, you may have a problem. Maybe not.
In those tanks most of the different types of bacteria have died out to be taken over by the dominate bacteria which may be fine depending on what that bacteria does. I believe it is healthier to add new bacteria over the year, and not that stuff that is supposed to be bacteria an a bottle. I add bacteria from under rocks in the sea. I also add amphipods, copepods and seaweed.
These bacteria kind of increase the gene pool in the tank and keep it healthy. I also have never had a crash.
Thare are plenty of pictures in my gallery.
Have a great Fourth of July.
Paul

:lol::lol:

 

[reefnetworth]

Paul B, mass overcrowding was the strayed point. lol! i see some tanks in here that have no room for water. i agree with you 100% i was useing your tank for a reference of how to do it (reef) and controll it without $10,000 of filters, UV sterilizers, and all the wortless junk not needed to house organisms from the ocean. the bacterial issue is one i push to others also. if you add slowly and allow the bacteria necessary to grow to compete in the parameters allowable. it can be done with minimul cost and time consumption. allowing time for the beauty of the natural reef to be seen as in its natural environment. not as one wants it to be, but how it was created. thanx Paul B, for your direction for those of us wishing to do it that way. you were an inspiration of my believes after i had started it the same way years ago when people said it couldnt be done. hope to continue with my DSB and now you have me debating if i should remove about 2" of it. only 4" in the deeper parts, some of it is only 1" ill debate on that some more. happy reefing, good luck and health, always REEF-ON!!!

 

[Paul B]

Nano4brains, Thanks. I just came back a few minutes ago from collecting.
I collected mostly bacteria. Of course there were also thousands of amphipods also but the bacteria is the most important item to keep your reef healthy.
I take rocks from tide pools at low tide and swirl them in a bucket of water. All the stuff I get besides sea squirts and crabs I dump in.
They should sell this stuff but I don't think anyone does.
Paul

 

[reefnetworth]

it could probably be sold. the cost would be quit high as to the fact of next-day air. and the samples would need to shiped the day of collection. then someone would bash you or the collecters for something it did or something they didnt do. and with the massive water turnovers in some of the tanks ive seen it would be useless. filtered before it can attach or begin to attack/eat the bad bacteria. i guess if you wanted to send me some, my wife probably wouldnt care. thanx again Paul b & REEF-ON!!!

 

[Paul B]

Nano, I would imagine bacteria could stand a trip in a bag for a few days. I tried amphipods and sometimes they made it fine but bacteria are not too picky. I think you could ship them anywhere.
Paul