120g. upgrade--sandbed?

[awestruck]

My 58g. has a sand bed but no nem. I am upgrading to a 120g. with the sump and fuge in the basement and the display in the living room. I will be adding a sand bed to the fuge; now, here's my question: I absolutely MUST put an awesome nem in the 120g. and therefore am wondering if the 120g. should have a dsb too. Do people have anemones with little or no sand?

What are your thoughts?
TIA

 

[ATX aquarist]

I had a sand bed, long story short it ended up killing all my corals. I changed the sand to coral rubble. The rubble looked like a natural reef and it filtered the water better and provided more area for copepods to safely reproduce. If I had the choice, I would do rubble instead of sand

 

[Haddonisreef]

I have sand in all 3 of my reefs i have heard that rubble will trap unwanted nutrients. Sand you can get sand sifting stars, sea cucumbers to turn the sand and get rid of unwanted detritus. Sand looks like a more natural reef in my opinion. It should be at least 4 in deep and allow it to mature before adding a anemone which could take up to 6 mths depending if you use live sand or just south down.

 

[awestruck]

ok, thanks for your responses.

 

[marc price]

i've had a ~4"- 5" dsb for the past 6 years, went from a bare bottom to a ~2" sand bed 4 years prior to that. never did rubble for the reason cited by charlie and fear that it would become a hair algae magnet. sand dwellers like s. haddoni, sebae's, and lta's... will like a dsb, non-sand dwelling anemones won't miss it.

 

[curthendrix]

If you're going to use a dsb then you need to do it correctly or you will eventually have nutrient issues. You need a deep sand bed...unless your willing to go shallow and vacuum. A dsb needs to be 6" deep and use a mixture of coarse and fine sand with the emphasis on fine. I would stay away from rubble as not only will it trap waste but the surface area is much less that fine sand. The more surface area the more beneficial bacteria a bed can maintain.

Also, you need to seed your dsb either with live sand or a kit from somewhere like inland aquatics. I would also advise against putting any sand sifting stars or or sand sifting fish in the tank. As they sift your sand they are eating the very critters that you need in your dsb.

 

[garygb]

I have a 50 gallon tank with a deep sand bed (aragonite, fine grain ranging from sugar size to pieces 4 or 5 mm across, 6 inches deep). The tank has been set up about 4 years. In the past, the nitrates were always zero so I basically stopped testing. A week or so ago, I decided to test the nitrates. They were high (60ppm or higher). I've done 3 significant water changes in the past week. The nitrates are lower, but still around 15ppm. My bioload is: 3 fish (ocellaris pair and a damsel) and heteractis magnifica. All have been together for years in the tank. I have an Aqua C remora protein skimmer. I use no other mechanical filtration. I never vacuum the deep sand bed when I make water changes--should I? I wasn't running any activated carbon, but yesterday I put some in a nylon stocking and placed it in the tank. I don't have a sump on this tank or I would do a RDSB--how do you do those when there isn't a sump? Anyway, suggestions are welcome...Gary

 

[Mikigo]

As I understand it. Sand bed needs to be vacuumed regularly to prevent accumulation of detrius. As sand volume decrease after several vacuuming, new sand is added. This way, the tank will not crush in a few years.

 

[curthendrix]

Shallow sand beds should be vacuumed regularly and the sand replaced. You should not disturb a dsb. If you are running a dsb it is very important that you maintain the proper fauna necessary for it to effectively operate.

 

[garygb]

I appreciate the responses, although they completely contradict one another on the subject of vacuuming;-) As far as fauna, lots of small bristle worms inhabit the sand, along with copepods and some mysids under the live rock where the damsel can't get them. I have one small reef hermit and two turbo grazers--each several years old.

The ph appears stable 8.4-8.6, two 150 watt HQI lights on the tank (10,000K), temp 80-82F. My source water is undectectable for nitrates.

Curt, do you think if I were to vacuum just the surface of the sand (top inch or so), not disturbing the deeper levels, that it might be advantageous?

I was very surprised to see such high nitrates. Again, the inhabitants weren't visibly distressed at all. The clowns spawn every few weeks and the H. magnificas appear healthy.

It's not the test kit, because I tested my other aquarium with the same kit and it showed undetectable nitrates.

I was out of the country and didn't feed the tank for 12 days or so in Sept. and then since returning I've been feeding both the anemones and fish more than usual--maybe I just went overboard and that bumped the nitrates up.

Definitely want to get the nitrates back down (even though there is no visible distress in the animals).

More info. is welcome,
Thanks,
Gary

 

[E.J. Coral]

It really depends on the type of anemone that you plan on getting. But assuming that you get an anemone that doesn't inhabit the sand, I would say skip the sandbed for a few reasons:

1. Sandbeds take too long to stabalize. You could end up waiting up to 6 months before you can add your centerpiece anemone. With a bare bottom system, which is properly setup, you can add an anemone within weeks.

2. Flow. You can really get the flow going in a BB system without sandstorms. For anemones such as H. magnifica or S. gigantea, this is of monumental importance.

3. Control of water chemistry. In a BB system, your water quality is determined solely by your import and export habits. With a DSB there is a greater potential for uncontrolled shifts in chemistry, due to complex equilibria which occur in the DSB. The caveat to this is that it is hard to control nitrates , at least in my experience, with a BB system. This doesn't seem to be a problem as I have/had systems where the nitrates are high enough to make SPS impossible where anemones thrive.

4. Moving thinks around. If your anemone goes on a walk, it is easier to reaquascape a BB tank, IMO.

 

[MarinaP]

I agree with what E.J. Coral said. My display tank is BB and houses RBTAs and a magnifica.

I once helped my friend to empty his tank and take DSB out. His tank has been running for several years (SPS dominated, all bells and whistles). I still remember the stench once we dug deep enough. Washing large Euroreef collection cup is child's play compared to the smell of deeper layers of DSB. I cannot imagine what kind of chemical reactions are happening in those layers.

 

[awestruck]

Thank you everyone. So, do you suggest a dsb for the refugium?

 

[traveller7]

I prefer a Remote DSB that can be removed, replaced, trashed easily.
Sand loving anemones get a tupperware sand box to play in.

 

[E.J. Coral]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11179877#post11179877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by awestruck
Thank you everyone. So, do you suggest a dsb for the refugium?

If you go BB, ditch the sand in the refugium. Set up a remote dsb where there is no detritus build up, or no sand at all ... The issue is that you want to avoid the "sinking" of nutrients in the system ... it is better to export detritus through siphoning, skimming and/or mechanical filtration than to have it processed/rot in the system.

 

[MarinaP]

My display runs without any sand. It has two large sumps, one with LR, another houses mechanical filtration. No macroalgae. I forgot the name of the only kind of macroalgae I would ever put in my refugium. Traveller7 would remember.

I rarely change water in that system.

 

[MarinaP]

Re: 120g. upgrade--sandbed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11098284#post11098284 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by awestruck
I am upgrading to a 120g. with the sump and fuge in the basement and the display in the living room.

Be very diligent while planning this setup. Cut no corners. Check if the beams will support the weight of the tank.

One of the very experienced reefers on this site lost his beautiful very large tank to malfunction of the equipment in the basement. I saw that tank in person, it was exceptional. And everything was dead a year later. He flooded his basement with 100s G of saltwater, too.

You can fit a sump under your 120 easily.

 

[traveller7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11180552#post11180552 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarinaP
Traveller7 would remember.

Not a chance.

Oh yeah, Chaetomorpha

 

[awestruck]

Re: Re: 120g. upgrade--sandbed?

Re: Re: 120g. upgrade--sandbed?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11180607#post11180607 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarinaP
Be very diligent while planning this setup. Cut no corners. Check if the beams will support the weight of the tank.

One of the very experienced reefers on this site lost his beautiful very large tank to malfunction of the equipment in the basement. I saw that tank in person, it was exceptional. And everything was dead a year later. He flooded his basement with 100s G of saltwater, too.

You can fit a sump under your 120 easily.

 

[awestruck]

Marina, tried to cut and paste your above words of wisdom but I did it wrong.

Anyway, yes, I am quite nervous about doing this because of the sump and fuge being in the basement. The sump is going to be a 60g. tub w/a bulkhead already in it, and the fuge is going to be my 58g. that currently is my reef.

The guy who is going to help me (probably do all of it while I learn) owns a pet store in a city quite close to me. He's been reefing forever and he feels pretty confident about doing this for me.

Your issue of the floor and beams is an excellent one, especially because my house is 50 years old. I am going to buy 2 floor support poles and put them in the basement, under the tank.

Additionally, I am hiring an electrican to install two new gfci outlets in the basement to ensure electrical safety.

Does it sound like I'm thinking this through ok or have I forgotten something important? I REALLY appreciate the help because I am doubling the size of my tank and it's a pretty big change (at least to me).