2 fish stopped eating, one has a deteriorating mouth???

[Travis]

Yes, my tank had a lot more hiding spots before. It used to be overgrown with corals:

And now it's just the live rock. I see your point about the fish getting older and the major changes. Could even be that the achilles is "defending" his spot and holding it down so no other fish can take it.

Noticed a few small white specs on the purple tang tonight. Of course, even clear pictures show nothing. They are not ich, that I know for sure. They are very small and very hard to see.

While taking pics, I noticed that in pictures, the achilles' eye looks cloudy (see attached picture). However, when looking at the tank without a camera they don't look cloudy at all. But the achilles is in a dark spot so maybe I'm not seeing the cloudiness with my own eyes because he isn't coming out in the light.

 

[Travis]

Now I'm feeling kind of stupid. Did an ammonia test tonight and realized that the last test I did I was looking at the color chart for freshwater. Ammonia was zero tonight and was zero the first time but I was looking at the wrong chart.

 

[RBU1]

Well thats a good thing....Maybe something got into your water.....I really am not sure what could be going on at this point. Any improvement since the large water change?

 

[Travis]

I may have figured out what is wrong with the achilles (and possibly the same with the foxface). I'm 95% confident that the achilles is healthy (normal breathing, good ability to swim, plump body, etc.) except for its eyes. It appears to have a severely reduced ability to see. I watched it trying to venture about 12" from it's "spot" tonight and it was bumping into things. He is still isolating himself to his little area but is always swimming around. It looks like he is using the fins on the bottom front of his body (don't know what they're called) to "feel" along as he swims. He can sense when a fish is near him and expands his fins but I'm pretty sure he can't see the fish very well. I can see tonight with the naked eye that both of the achilles' eyes are looking cloudy. It's only around the outside edge (what I would compare to the white area in a human eye) and not in the middle.

Can someone tell me, besides flukes, what else can cause blindness/reduced ability to see in fish?

 

[TripleT]

Now I'm feeling kind of stupid. Did an ammonia test tonight and realized that the last test I did I was looking at the color chart for freshwater. Ammonia was zero tonight and was zero the first time but I was looking at the wrong chart.

I throw out the freshwater color chart that comes with test kits.

If you have any freshwater tanks, convert them to salt.

So you previously had ammonia in your water? If so, I think water quality moves to #1 in the list of causes. I'd do the largest water change you're comfortable with... or several smaller ones over the course of a few days.

I actually had a blind fish earlier this year... immediately following a pump change in my sump. All of my fish showed extreme signs of stress (odd swimming, very heavy breathing), but recovered over about 48 hours. But one chromis wound up blind, which took a few days for me to realize.

I put him in QT because the other fish were attacking him, and he wasn't getting any food. In QT, he would bump into walls, the thermometer, and other objects. He would only eat if food hit him in his mouth. I would find him swimming around wide awake, hours after lights out... I don't think he could even tell the difference between day and night.

He learned to swim in smaller circles (less bumping into the thermometer and heater, which he did a LOT of in the first weeks), and pluck food off the barebottom tank, which I thought was pretty amazing. He would even swim backwards on the tank floor, in very short bursts, which drew the food towards him. He would do this most of the day, because it was hit or miss depending on how close he was to any food. I overfed the QT tank to increase the odds.

After two months, he slowly began to peck food out of the water column again. Within a couple more weeks, he was acting as though he could see perfectly again. Shortly after, I added him back to the display tank, where he rejoined the 5 chromis he had originally schooled with.

So... I would focus on water quality, nutrition, and QT him if he is not eating. Make the QT barebottom so he can find food more easily.

And I would consider adding a Polyfilter pad, or a Pura filter pad to your display tank's sump.

 

[Travis]

I am ruling out ammonia. I did increase feedings recently but this is a very mature system (up and running for 6 years) with an oversized skimmer. Only reason I thought I had ammonia was because I was using the FW color chart, which is now in the garbage. The achilles symptoms sound exactly like those of your chromis. My plan for this weekend is to catch the achilles and put him in the sump. The sump is 120 gallons and I have a large area sectioned off with eggcrate and has a light on a timer that I will put him.

I did place the foxface in the sump after the FW dip on Wednesday. The foxface won't even move around, just sits in one spot. Doesn't even seem to see me when I go up to the sump or put my hand in the water right next to him. I put some nori and mysis in his mouth last night and he won't accept it.

I still have high hopes for the achilles but the fate of the foxface is looking dismal at this point.

 

[Travis]

Unfortunately, no progress to report. Had to euthanize the foxface last night. He was in really bad shape and hasn't eaten for probably a month. Extremely rapid breathing, no swim bladder control, bleeding from several lesions on his body (probaby from rubbing against things in the sump), etc. I put him in a baggie and placed him in the freezer. I've read this is the most humane way to euthanize, is this correct?

Achilles hasn't gotten any better. The first few days in the sump he would take a nip or 2 at the nori clip right when I would put it in but shows no interest now and has not eaten for several weeks. Continues to act blind. Swims around the sump bumping into things and has scratches all over his face from this. His body is very pale colored and almost seems to get more pale by the day. No other infection signs noted on his body and his breathing appears normal.

Had a pajama cardinal go MIA this weekend.

About 1-2 weeks ago I noticed the purple tang had a a blanket of tiny white specks covering about 1/4 of it's body. Definitely not ich. The spots were very small and almost shiny and you could only see him when he wold be at just the right angle. He seems to have recovered from this and I no longer see the spots.

I do see similar spots on my emperor now and have for the past week or so. The emperor is a new fish as well as a dogface puffer that I had added to the sump only a couple days before I realized something was wrong with my foxface and achilles. I didn't mention this addition earlier as the problems with the foxface and achilles presented themselves before the new additions. So I didn't want people to be confused and assume that the new additions were the culprit. The new additions did come from Live Aquaria Diver's Den.

A couple cardinals in the tank appear to have small whitish areas on their fins. They are not specs, more like tiny areas of discoloration, probably the size of a fluke.

I would say that half or more of my fish are breathing rapidly and have been for 2+ weeks.

I'm still at a loss. I want to say brook but can this lay fallow in the tank for 2-3 years? And also, why are my fish living without eating for 4 weeks if it is brook?

I ordered some ParaGuard and I'm going to start dosing that immediately when it comes in. I went with the ParaGuard as it treats a wide range of problems and can be added directly to the display. If I knew for sure what was going on I would treat with the specific medication for the job.

 

[RBU1]

Sounds like velvet to me....Thats not good. Usually velvet kills rather fast. In your case it seems the fish survived it a great deal longer. Paraguard will stain your tank seals if you have a glass tank. I also am not sure that I would use that in my main display...

 

[Travis]

I have read a couple articles on velvet today and it does sound like it. It's just odd that the fish are surviving so long and the Achilles does not have rapid breathing.

As for the paraguard, the tank is acrylic.

 

[Nerd1717]

Sorry about the whole situation, it stinks to deal with this kind of thing. It is a fairly interesting read for me though, as i don't know a whole lot about fish disease.

 

[RBU1]

When I first was starting my QT regimine, I was going to treat all fish with Paraguard instead of copper. I was instructed by fellow hobiests not to use paraguard because it was only effective on ich and not crypt, meaning freshwater not saltwater. If you call Seachem they state that Paraguard will work on crypt but you have to use it for like 30 days dosing it regularly. Might be worth it for you to call Seachem, and I am not even sure paraguard will touch velvet....

 

[TripleT]

I ordered some ParaGuard and I'm going to start dosing that immediately

Is that safe for your rock and inverts (if you have any) ?

 

[Travis]

When I first was starting my QT regimine, I was going to treat all fish with Paraguard instead of copper. I was instructed by fellow hobiests not to use paraguard because it was only effective on ich and not crypt, meaning freshwater not saltwater. If you call Seachem they state that Paraguard will work on crypt but you have to use it for like 30 days dosing it regularly. Might be worth it for you to call Seachem, and I am not even sure paraguard will touch velvet....

I'm really at a loss as to what is going on for sure. To my knowledge, Paraguard treats the widest array of infections of any med that can be used in the display. Since I'm not certain what is infecting my fish, I figured this would be my best bet. Even if it doesn't cure anything right now, my hope is for some immediate relief to buy time. My wife is due to have a baby any day now so I don't want to take the chance of setting up a hospital tank and having something go wrong with it while we are at the hospital for a few days.

I don't plan to treat my tank with paraguard until pests are erradicated because it's kind of expensive since it has to be dosed daily and I have a large system.

 

[Travis]

Is that safe for your rock and inverts (if you have any) ?

From what I have read, yes it is safe.

 

[RBU1]

I would call Seachem. Congrats on the new baby.....If this is your first make sure you are getting plenty of sleep now.....

 

[Travis]

Thanks. Spent a good deal of time looking at the tank and fish tonight. Almost all fish have little white specs on their fins. Another cardinal has stopped eating and seems to be having a very hard time breathing. Not rapid breathing but very labored. Emperor is getting pale. Achilles is super pale and eyes are turning greyish blue and starting to bulge. Whatever is going on, it seems to have picked up pace. Really starting to lean towards velvet.

What are effective treatments for velvet? Just copper? I have a 75 I can set up as a hospital tank. But if I transfer all of my fish, it will be a big bio-load for that size tank and I have no type of non-natural biological filter at this point. I'm kinda stressing now and willing to do whatever I need. Problem is I'm not sure if I can get Cupramine locally. And even if I can I'm almost certain I won't be able to find a test kit. I could have it overnight delivered but that would get here by Thursday at the earliest.

I don't know what was originally infecting my fish but I believe that I introduced the velvet (if that is what's going on) when I added the fish from Diver's Den. I shouldn't have rolled the dice but I was hoping that Diver's Den fish would be ok to add to my sump without quarantining first.

 

[Travis]

Sorry for my continued rambling... I tend to ramble on a lot when I get stressed about my tank. I just sighed a breath of relief as I was reading through the tech support forums on the Seachem website. I found this thread about Paraguard: http://www.seachem-laboratories.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=2641&highlight=paraguard

A couple quotes from the tech support guy:

Paraguard will be effective against velvet

But if it is an external infection, Paraguard will be extremely effective no matter what form it is.

As for treatment duration. It sounds like it should be used a minimum of 3 weeks for ich but only needs to be used until there are no longer signs of infection with other diseases. For the most part, they say it is invert safe but make no guarantees. They did verify what RBU1 said about staining silicone (because it contains malachite green) but it shouldn't stain anything else. It has minimal (if any) effect on the bio-filter. My take on things from reading, is that the most dangerous sign to look out for is reduced oxygen levels in the tank when dosing.

According to my tracking number, my Paraguard should be here on Thursday. Just hope all the fish can hold on for a few more days.

 

[RBU1]

Hopefully it will work for you. Keep us posted.

 

[RBU1]

Also google fish pharmacy and if you want give Dr. Aukes a call. He has some views on this stuff also. The more you get involved with QT and treating fish the more you will here varying opinions. Its almost like everyone has different opinions of what will and will not work. I bought a BIG bottle of Paraguard because I was going top use it to QT all my fish in. Then the skeptics on here convinced me that even though Seachem was telling me it would work for crypt people on here were telling me it would not. Like I said I wish you the best of luck to bad you can't find it locally..

 

[RBU1]

I posted a question on the Seachem forum about paraguard and crypt/velvet...

There answer might also cause me to go back to using paraguard as my QT medication versus copper......