2 part vs. Ca Reactor on large systems?

[diverdick]

Guys,

I was not sure where to ask this question so I decided to go to the large system group. I have ~ 500 gallons in my system and have a large coral population. I have been 2 part dosing for several years. I am using allot of 2 part. I am beginning to wonder is the 2 part system makes sense for a large tank. I am tossing around the idea of a Ca Reactor.

Question: What are your thoughts, ideas & experiences.

Kind Regards,

--Rich

 

[jd474]

Building reactors is easy, and much less hassle than daily dosing, IME.

 

[dahenley]

Kalk will support a tank for a while, and then dosing would be fine, but after a while, you will find the demand is high enough to where a reactor is the most common since thing to get....
it may not be needed or even overrated for the current demand, so its hard to say.

mark obercheck (i think that his name) had a TOTM tank with pure softies and he had to run a CA reactor for them because of the demand. he even had to upgrade it later.

I would go with a CA reactor eventually. if money is a problem, then hold off and dose till your ready. (or until it becomes a major hassle and your reef suffers for it, and then you will get one)

if you dose, and you use dosing pumps... your already at the price of a reactor.

 

[diverdick]

Building reactors is easy, and much less hassle than daily dosing, IME.

I have considered that approach. Do you have plans I can take ideas from?

Thanks for your feedback

--Rich

 

[diverdick]

Kalk will support a tank for a while, and then dosing would be fine, but after a while, you will find the demand is high enough to where a reactor is the most common since thing to get....
it may not be needed or even overrated for the current demand, so its hard to say.

mark obercheck (i think that his name) had a TOTM tank with pure softies and he had to run a CA reactor for them because of the demand. he even had to upgrade it later.

I would go with a CA reactor eventually. if money is a problem, then hold off and dose till your ready. (or until it becomes a major hassle and your reef suffers for it, and then you will get one)

if you dose, and you use dosing pumps... your already at the price of a reactor.

I already have a 2 part feed system in place. I use pulsafeeder PD pumps which, work great. I just feel using the amounts I am make little sense. I am leaning to a more hands off approach - set up a CO2/Calcium Reactor. Find a sweet spot. Possibly tweak with 2 part now and then vs. gallons of 2 part monthly (like 6 gallons of each part/month).

Keep the ideas coming!

Thanks Again

 

[blueroof]

I have one for sale. Would let it go for $700. Here is a link to a new one.
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/re...eef-creations-ccr-3824-triple-calcium-reactor

I will even throw in the regulator and CO2 controller.

 

[jd474]

I have considered that approach. Do you have plans I can take ideas from?

Thanks for your feedback

--Rich

Nothing concrete, but they are simple. Water in/out, CO2 in, recirc pump, etc. I have built them for tanks up to 25 000 gal., for under a few hundred $. Not as sexy as a commercially built acrylic unit, but just as, or more functional. I can post a pic when I get more time.

 

[dahenley]

i would like to see some pictures of these larger units.
(you can PM me the pictures or links if need be)

 

[bmkj02]

I like this thread on building a DIY calcium reactor. I made mine from this design and it works great. You can make it whatever design. I made mine around 3ft tall

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733057

 

[jd474]

This is the first one I built about 3 - 4 years ago, so excuse it's crudeness:

Again, very simple. This is running my home tank, ~375 total gallons, but could easily handle a 500+. 6" diameter, 24" tall, and holds about 40 lbs. of media. CO2 goes in at the bottom, next to the pump influent, water in on the side, and out the top (effluent MUST be above influent). pH probe port/probe at top as well. Mag 5 recirc. pump on a simple loop. Inside, there is perforated PVC, covered w/fly screen to prevent media from getting sucked into the pump. Everything is done w/simple drilling/tapping. For a better look, I'd use bolted flanges, but these threaded fittings work fine as well (media only needs replaced every ~2 years, anyway). Clear PVC can be purchased and shipped by the foot, from US plastics. Anything up to 6" is really reasonable. This is the smallest of 6 I have in use, and all work perfectly fine. I don't use bubble counters, but they are easy enough to add/build.

As far as one for a 10 000+ system, they look identical, just bigger.

They are more about water volume, and having enough time for total dissolution of CO2, and getting a totally saturated effluent.

 

[diverdick]

This is the first one I built about 3 - 4 years ago, so excuse it's crudeness:

Again, very simple. This is running my home tank, ~375 total gallons, but could easily handle a 500+. 6" diameter, 24" tall, and holds about 40 lbs. of media. CO2 goes in at the bottom, next to the pump influent, water in on the side, and out the top (effluent MUST be above influent). pH probe port/probe at top as well. Mag 5 recirc. pump on a simple loop. Inside, there is perforated PVC, covered w/fly screen to prevent media from getting sucked into the pump. Everything is done w/simple drilling/tapping. For a better look, I'd use bolted flanges, but these threaded fittings work fine as well (media only needs replaced every ~2 years, anyway). Clear PVC can be purchased and shipped by the foot, from US plastics. Anything up to 6" is really reasonable. This is the smallest of 6 I have in use, and all work perfectly fine. I don't use bubble counters, but they are easy enough to add/build.

As far as one for a 10 000+ system, they look identical, just bigger.

They are more about water volume, and having enough time for total dissolution of CO2, and getting a totally saturated effluent.

Sorry for the delay, I was on the road for biz. Thanks a bunch for the info and email. I have a DIY Kalk reactor I am thinking of modding for this project. Keep the ideas coming!

Most Kind Regards,
--Rich

 

[d3hree]

I am building quite a large tank and I looked into balling/dosing. It worked out pretty expensive over time. The reactors I have were pretty pricey but in about 18 months they will pay for themselves vs balling.

I love the idea of DIY reactors and this looks great!

 

[sfsuphysics]

Reactors do need to be periodically refilled with "media" and have their CO2 refilled as well, not to mention pH probes that you use with them will need to be periodically changed (Every year or so??) so the cost of a Ca reactor can be pretty hefty too. For 2-part your cost is whatever your 2part costs you and maybe a piece of tubing for your peristaltic pumps every few years, the downside is you may not live anywhere that has said rough ingredients, baking soda is a simple task, the calcium chloride is usually the one that ends up being expensive ... again depending upon where you live, if you live near the snow and can still find the deicing agents that have it, you're golden it's cheap as dirt, if you have pool supply stores it's a bit more expensive but still economically feasible, if you need to have it sent to you via any "aquarium stores" online... then that's when it gets expensive.

I have a 200+g system now, and have 2 part liquid in old 5g salt buckets, going up to 400g shortly, and will initially do that as well, however the downside with 2 part on larger tanks is you tend to need much more space to store said 2 part solution, and liquid containers do get expensive if you have to buy them.

 

[diverdick]

Mike,

I currently run 2 part on my ~ 500 gallon system and the amounts I use is becoming silly. Over 2 gallons of each part, per week. I have good growth but do see some odd level behaviors. Alk dropping / falling fairly quickly. I am reluctant to believe it is the best thing for the system to keep bumping the rates up on the dosers.

I am curious, how much do you use in your system per week?

I am considering going with a Calcium reactor to smooth things out a bit. Using 2 part for adjustments/tweaks vs. very large additions.

 

[bullitr]

I have a 600 gallon system
Dosing is so much easier and more precise

 

[diverdick]

I have a 600 gallon system
Dosing is so much easier and more precise

How much of the 2 part additives are you using per week - estimated?

 

[sarmo]

My system is about 7-800 gallons, i use baking soda and calcium chloride added multiple times per day with dosing pumps. currently i dose about 1650ml per day of calcium solution. i mix the calcium at 2cups per gallon of RO, this is close to what BRS recommends. the baking soda is a similar amount although the concentration is different, so i dose more ml/day, 2464ml/day (4.5 cups baking soda and 1cup og washing soda per 5 gallons of RO). i do this because i don't think the baking soda dissolves as well or fast.
i have 2 35 gallon Brute containers to hold the solutions so i can be away for extended periods.
my only negative observation of my method is that it seems to result in an increase in salinity over time. i fix this with water changes that have silghtly lower salinity. yes. i have an ATO that uses RO/DI.
i use to use a calcium reactor but had all kinds of problems with algae growth in the 1/4" tubes and CO2 filling the reactor. granted that was in my early days and i think i have figured out soultions to all that now but the dosing is much easier and reliable for me.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Mike,

I currently run 2 part on my ~ 500 gallon system and the amounts I use is becoming silly. Over 2 gallons of each part, per week. I have good growth but do see some odd level behaviors. Alk dropping / falling fairly quickly. I am reluctant to believe it is the best thing for the system to keep bumping the rates up on the dosers.

I am curious, how much do you use in your system per week?

I am considering going with a Calcium reactor to smooth things out a bit. Using 2 part for adjustments/tweaks vs. very large additions.

Out of curiosity do you have a brownish/white crust all over your heaters or around pumps? That's a sign that your calcium & alk are not freely migrating into the tank and are binding too quickly, which often is a sign of lo//w magnesium (especially if you only dose 2 parts, and not a 3rd part ... magnesium ). I noticed that with my tank as well I'd put a ton of solution in and constantly had low values, brought the magnesium levels way up and problem was solved.

As to my mixture, I mix half strength solutions simply so there's no premature precipitation when hitting the tank. 200 mg anhydrous calcium chloride (pellets not flakes) per gallon of water, and 300 mg of Arm & Hammer baking soda (no baking, no pH issues) per gallon. 16 cups per gallon, so 7/8 of a gallon of water (and solution) per week.

While I wouldn't mind going with a calcium reactor too, there are so many more potential bad things that can happen with a calcium reactor from phosphate (algae) issues to pH issues if any of your equipment fails. Great thing about 2 part is even if something goes wrong it's not a critically bad mistake, I've had my controller stick on the on position, basically emptying my entire 4 gallon buckets of 2 part into the tank, woke up to a very white tank, it literally looked like it snowed, quite pretty actually with white on every rock surface (not on corals though), very nice contrast. From what I gathered there's a limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can actually get into a tank, the rest just precipitates into a white snowy mess.

Since everyone is different as far as how much stuff costs, go ahead and do a cost analysis of how much your 2 part solution costs you, vs a calcium reactor, not forgetting ph probe upgrades, the cost of replacing media, the cost of CO2, the cost of phosphate removing media (if you need to go there as well).

 

[bullitr]

How much of the 2 part additives are you using per week - estimated?

I set my bubble magus Doser
Alkalinity @ 160 ml per day
Calcium @ 180 ml per day
Magnesium @ 100 ml per day

Alkalinity level 10.6
Calcium 480
Magnesium 1480

I have 5 gallon that last me a while
Baking soda is cheap
So as Epsom salt and magnesium chloride.

 

[diverdick]

My system is about 7-800 gallons, i use baking soda and calcium chloride added multiple times per day with dosing pumps. currently i dose about 1650ml per day of calcium solution. i mix the calcium at 2cups per gallon of RO, this is close to what BRS recommends. the baking soda is a similar amount although the concentration is different, so i dose more ml/day, 2464ml/day (4.5 cups baking soda and 1cup og washing soda per 5 gallons of RO). i do this because i don't think the baking soda dissolves as well or fast.
i have 2 35 gallon Brute containers to hold the solutions so i can be away for extended periods.
my only negative observation of my method is that it seems to result in an increase in salinity over time. i fix this with water changes that have silghtly lower salinity. yes. i have an ATO that uses RO/DI.
i use to use a calcium reactor but had all kinds of problems with algae growth in the 1/4" tubes and CO2 filling the reactor. granted that was in my early days and i think i have figured out soultions to all that now but the dosing is much easier and reliable for me.

It looks like you dose in proportion to myself in terms of additive volume. I was not clear earlier. I currently use only BRS two part with their Mag solution. One of the reasons I am considering moving to a Calcium Reactor system is I, at times, do not believe my Salifert results for Magnesium. My Mag levels tend to linger high according to the test kit. Over a months time, I continue to read high levels (1440 to 1500+). I am wondering if, with large additions of the BRS materials, the Mag test is being "confused" or mis-interpreted the value.

I run an ultra low nutrient system and am curious on your comments about algae and possible phosphate problems. Do you think the Calcium Reactor approach adds phosphates?

Thanks for your input to the thread!

--Rich