<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11488584#post11488584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
The first problem is that there are only six (six!) FRAG meetings scheduled for next year, with the rest being supersceded by PROP auctions. These meetings are supposed to be FRAG meetings.
Well, it's been this way at least since 2003 when I started attending meetings; but suddenly in 2008, 6 FRAG meetings is too few?
If your point is that you would personally like to attend more than 6 FRAG meetings a year, then why not just say that? Why try to make this into a "FRAG vs. PROP" thing?
The only coincidental occurence between a FRAG meeting and a PROP auction is the meeting place at Pranksters.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11488584#post11488584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
If PROP wants to have auctions, they ought to find their own place/time to have them, instead of pushing FRAG out of the way to make profit for themselves (although that is a whole 'nother can of worms for me), without FRAG's approval.
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Again, why? because
you have decided that you don't like PROP meeting in the same location as FRAG, or because you have decided that 6 FRAG meetings a year is too few?
And how do you arrive at the conclusion that "FRAG" doesn't approve of PROP's meeting schedule? Are you presuming to speak for every person in the FRAG community?
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11488584#post11488584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
Don't get me wrong, the auction is a good time, and a nice way for people to sell their frags. But PROP needs to figure out a way to do it without displacing FRAG, especially with the money PROP takes in every time.
That brings me to another point, actually. If FRAG is going to continue hosting PROP auctions, there need to be reforms to the method of said auctions. For example, there needs to be equity in terms of who can sell what.
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Please document the "inequity" that exists today. I'm reasonably certain that it will be something that has already been discussed iin this forum (as a group) in the past.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11488584#post11488584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
All members of FRAG have an equal right to sell any type of coral or corals, regardless of what PROP is auctioning off on a given day.
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This is only an accurate statement when it applies to selling coral outside the venue of a PROP auction. There are many people who attend FRAG meetings, trade/sell frags, and participate in this forum, who do not have a PROP registration number, and therefore do not buy or sell at PROP auctions, and there is nothing "wrong" with that arrangement at all. All participation in FRAG, or in PROP auctions, is 100% voluntary. PROP does not try to enforce itself as the only vehicle in town for selling coral frags, nor should it.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11488584#post11488584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
Along those lines, the lots of corals ought to be randomized, so that all those auctioning off their corals have an equal chance to be in the front (and the back) end of the auction.
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Again, this has been discussed in this forum before, and the group consensus was that first come, first served was the fairest way to handle the listing process. That decision was not unanimous, but it was the majority position. With a group this large, no decision will ever be unanimous.
The only caveat I will add to this arrangement was that we all agreed (again as a group/community) that the Auctions should be capped at 150 lots, to prevent auctions from going past 2-3 hours, because more people were complaining about long auctions than were complaining about the opportunity to buy/sell. I played a personal role championing this initiative because it was
my vocal chords that were taking a beating at these long auctions
I love the current arrangment, for purely selfish reasons.
Frankly, the idea of randomizing the final list (once the first 150 entries are in) is a damn good idea to me, but some sellers have been known to come in, list early, sell their lots, check out at half time, and beat feet out of there. These folks might not like your idea.... I personally think it is worthy of group discussion and should probably have a dedicated thread opened up to discuss.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11488584#post11488584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OwenInAZ
Incidentally, that's part of the reason we need to organize into a real club and not just a group. That way, we can have a reasonable method of dealing with issues like this when they come up.
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"We" being who? in my mind FRAG is a community of people who share a common interest and like to hang out from time to time.
Are you suggesting that this new club would also assume the role of coordinating local auctions? are you proposing consolidating FRAG and PROP under a single, new, formal governing body?
Organizing into a club brings politics into the mix, and that will signal my exit strategy if it ever comes to pass... I already deal with enough politics in my life. FRAG is my chance to simply hang out with cool people, share experience, and chat about my reef tank, and PROP is my opportunity to share my frags, as well as to grow new corals for introduction into this community.
As an individual, I usually make more money on my own frags outside of PROP, because I can control the price. I sold a 1/2 square inch frag of Sunset Montipora at the November 2007 auction for SIXTEEN DOLLARS. That frag would have brought $70+ on frags.org, but I felt good knowing it went to a local who wanted Sunset Monti for their tank, but maybe couldn't swing $70 bucks for it.... and I had no gripes letting that frag go and living up to the aggreement that I made as a PROP auction seller.
Like PROP or hate PROP, no one can discredit the value that it brings to this community, unless they want a debate from me.
Owen, I sense from your post that you are assuming that there is some degree of exclusivity to FRAG and/or PROP, and I just don't see it that way, beyond the fact that there is an application process to become a PROP farmer, and that a new farmer's system and practices have to be audited, reviewed, and signed off by a vote of existing PROP farmers. The only rationale for this practice is that PROP owned corals (those corals purchased with auction proceeds) belong to the community, and thus should be maintained only in the community's heathiest systems.
PROP is not a corporation, and PROP does not generate profit. I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but here are the facts:
1) After every auction, we publicly post (in this forum) the total dollar amount that was collected from the sales of PROP frags and the 10% sales commisions on the other sellers' offerings at that auction.
2) Every time we have an opportunity to use those funds to purchase new PROP corals, we publicly solicit for feedback/input from this entire community on what corals we should purchase. Even people in the FRAG community who may not even have a PROP number can still voice their opinion on what corals PROP should purchase, and the only deal killer to a particular coral being selected is if none of the existing PROP farmers are willing to house that coral in their tank. Farmers have final right to choose what corals they will place in their systems (as they should).
3) PROP does not distribute any funds for any purpose other than the purchase of coral frags and colonies. Farmers do not receive any financial compensation or subsidy for the costs incurred (supplments, etc) with growing PROP corals.
So, if PROP is doing this for "profit" then someone needs to educate me on exactly where that profit is going, because PROP doesn't offer common stock, and we don't pay a dividend...
Sorry for the long post everyone, and I hope I don't come across as picking on Owen. I'm only trying to address his concerns one by one, and offering my opinions/viewpoints along the way.
I hope this clears the air on a lot of mis-conception....
If dates are set we can add them to the Frag FAQ when they are known.
