2008 Event Dates

[30reef]

I'm with Denny on this. If you don't like going to FRAG meetings because of the PROP auction or how they are conducted, don't go. Don't find fault with PROP. What they do is for the benefit of all reefers in the valley. I would not even have a reef tank if it wasn't for FRAG and PROP as I wouldn't be able to afford it. None of the members puts any of that cash in their pocket. I would actually prefer to attend a meeting when there is an auction. The variety is so much greater that way.

It's no one's fault if a pest comes in on a frag. We all know the hidden dangers of introducing pathogens into our tanks from new additions. You are just as likely to get an infested coral from the LFS too. Or online for that matter.

Who wants to have to pay dues to hang out with your buddies and talk reef? Let's be rational. Free to all who want to attend is the way to go.

So to sum up what I have just said, it's a free country, start your own club if you don't like this one. Buy your corals from somewhere else if you don't want to support PROP. Sell your frags in the frag selling section on RC if you can't wait 30 days for a non auction date. FRAG and PROP do not need to be restructured, it works well as is. A little participation and a smile is all that is required.

 

[dvlax40]

if you think that prop is COMPLEATLY non profit then your mistaken

 

[moore_rb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522787#post11522787 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 30reef

So to sum up what I have just said, it's a free country, start your own club if you don't like this one. Buy your corals from somewhere else if you don't want to support PROP. Sell your frags in the frag selling section on RC if you can't wait 30 days for a non auction date. FRAG and PROP do not need to be restructured, it works well as is. A little participation and a smile is all that is required.

Amen, brother.

30Reef, look me up at the next meeting you attend. There's a free beer in it for you....

 

[moore_rb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520956#post11520956 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
This is the only issue I have with your post Robert. I will quote the 2007 FRAG FAQ:

This is why people are concerned over "only 6 FRAG meetings." This makes it sound like there are 12 meetings, 6 of which there is ALSO a PROP auction. The new wording with the dates makes it sound as if there are 6 FRAGs and 6 PROPs.

So a question is, could I buy or sell some frags at a "PROP" date without getting it in the auction? Seems like I could do that before, as long as the auction wasn't currently running.

I think Phil addressed this adequately. I was trying to stress the point that PROP auctions have been every other month for as long as I remember, and that anyone (FRAG, PROP, whatever) can show up at Prankster's on the day in question, but only registered PROP sellers/buyers could engage in the auction.

So if the crux of the issue is that there should be 6 FRAG dates advertised, and 6 PROP dates advertised, then changing the verbiage of the FAQ's should be simple enough, yes?

I've never seen an example of someone who was not registered with PROP being asked to leave an auction meeting, or being asked not to trade/sell corals on the side; and I would be the first to defend anyone's right to be there, regardless of whether they were participating in the auction or not....

I mean, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that people would want to show up merely to listen to my sexy voice, is it...?

 

[dvlax40]

ill just shut up as i like prop/frag , just wanted to be the voice of change

 

[moore_rb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522943#post11522943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvlax40
if you think that prop is COMPLEATLY non profit then your mistaken

This statement requires elaboration, because it is my opinion that
you are either mistaken, or grossly misinformed.

And I also wish to 2nd wideFX's question to you about how newbies are discouraged from selling at PROP auctions?

 

[frontosa_man80]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522943#post11522943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvlax40
if you think that prop is COMPLEATLY non profit then your mistaken

how? i dont get any money from PROP. please spell it out for the other members to see where we went wrong.

-jesse

 

[tropoasis]

May the buyer beware.....

It is in my opinion, the resposibility of the buyer to assume that ANY ivestock he or she get from ANY source, is a possible source of infection or infestation.

While the seller, if aware of it, should inform the buyer of any problem, if the buyer doesn't take the resposibility to Quarantine the new aquisition, it would be their fault if their system gets infected or infested.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522052#post11522052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dvlax40
this is not the time or place for the disscussion, but there have been cases of flatworms, nuds and the such being on frags. i like frag, but prop needs to have more responsiblity when it comes to things like that. i mean yeah we are getting sweet corals at sweet deals, but it is not fair if that coral wipes out a 1000$ tank

 

[badfish]

"So to sum up what I have just said, it's a free country, start your own club if you don't like this one. Buy your corals from somewhere else if you don't want to support PROP. Sell your frags in the frag selling section on RC if you can't wait 30 days for a non auction date. FRAG and PROP do not need to be restructured, it works well as is. A little participation and a smile is all that is required."


Could not have said it better myself. Right on 30reef.

 

[jasonh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11523026#post11523026 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by moore_rb
I think Phil addressed this adequately. I was trying to stress the point that PROP auctions have been every other month for as long as I remember, and that anyone (FRAG, PROP, whatever) can show up at Prankster's on the day in question, but only registered PROP sellers/buyers could engage in the auction.

No issue there.

So if the crux of the issue is that there should be 6 FRAG dates advertised, and 6 PROP dates advertised, then changing the verbiage of the FAQ's should be simple enough, yes?

Yep. I just hope it doesn't discourage someone new. "oh, this month isn't a FRAG meeting, guess I'll stay home." Ya know?

I've never seen an example of someone who was not registered with PROP being asked to leave an auction meeting, or being asked not to trade/sell corals on the side; and I would be the first to defend anyone's right to be there, regardless of whether they were participating in the auction or not....

I think as long as people read the rules about trading during the auction, all is well.

I mean, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that people would want to show up merely to listen to my sexy voice, is it...?

of course not. I enjoy just watching/listening at the auctions

 

[Philwd]

I had a real long reply typed out but I guess I most interested in 2 comments dvlax made I'd like him to clarify.

- First newbies being discouraged. I have not seen that. Why do you think so? This is a big one for me as I know all too well how intimidating it can be to show up at a big group and not know anyone.
- Second PROP not being completely non-profit. Again I'd like to hear your reasoning.

FYI I did write up a short piece on coral pests and how to treat them. Kirsten brought copies to FRAG for a while. If you ask nice maybe she'll bring some more to the next meeting.

 

[moore_rb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11523679#post11523679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd

FYI I did write up a short piece on coral pests and how to treat them. Kirsten brought copies to FRAG for a while. If you ask nice maybe she'll bring some more to the next meeting.

yup, and Frank (TROPOASIS) did a fantastic presentation on pests about a year ago. Maybe a PM to him could get you a copy of that, as well...

 

[kirstenk]

Summed it up well Phil. No wrong statements. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521561#post11521561 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd
Jason - without having talked to Kirsten about it this is my view as both a FRAG participant and a PROP farmer.

In 2007 essentially there were 12 FRAG dates; every other month FRAG hosted the PROP auction. BUT trading and the such still occured. All that was asked is that all trades be conducted before the auction or at the break so as to not disrupt the proceedings for everyone else. This coordination to me was great as you knew what was happening. Previous to 2006 the dates were more haphazard; especially PROP's.

Late last year there were some concerns raised that FRAG was controlling PROP. Or vice versa. I can see how someone new to the scene may have thought that although nothing could be further from the truth. The real fundamental question no one has asked is why are the same people major driving forces in both activities. That is the core question behind the conflict concerns. The answer is this hobby has such a high turnover there aren't many other people who have stable mature enough tanks to be PROP farmers. The PROP farmers were all participants in FRAG first and have among the greatest breadth of experience. So of course we are also among the most active and helpful who attend FRAG. In other words we are hobbiests first and foremost. And the few others with mature and stable tanks are also major participants in FRAG so the same perceived conflict of interest would arise. But still there were concerns raised that had to be dealt with.

To address these conflict of interest concerns, as Kirsten said the way things have evolved she was the Frag Hag and a member of PROP both, she separated the event dates and is stepping down from being the FRAG Hag. Let someone else, who is probably not affiliated with PROP in any way, take the reins of FRAG. At least that's the way I see it from what I've read Kirsten post. I could be wrong.

I can see why the idea of a formal club with dues that brings everything under its umbrella would be appealing. But this town just will not support such a club. Maybe Owen can start a poll. I would be interested to see the results. A small group tried to resurrect DMS almost 2 years back. That's where the Parade of Reefs started. But the effort fell apart.

Nothing is going to stop people from showing up before the auction, do a few trades then leave. I mean it happened long before FRAG ever hosted the auctions. FRAG hosting the auctions was just a way to get the 2 groups more involved together. When the dates were separate it hurt attendance at both events. Setting aside 2 weekends is much tougher for most people. So it was a matter of convenience.

 

[JMCAquarium]

Mrs. Kirsten,

I will get you the Frag dates after this up coming meeting it is one of the many many things I wish to discuss with everyone while we are there. Also need to find out if this place will be ok for future meetings, auctions and lectures as it doesn't have a seperate room like Pranksters does so it may not work for us. I'm glad to see you are coming and encourage anyone else that can come to come as it will be fun and much learning on my part. I figured we could do the name tag thing and have everyone stand up and introduce themselve as there are many newbs coming to this one. then have Mr. Richard speak on varied topics for an hour or so and then I would like to get opions and discuss a few things with everyone and get everyone's views.