2x400wMH or 3x250w MH?

[mc-cro]

My SPS tank is 60x24x26w and I am currently running 2 250W Radiums. I have the LumenArc mini's, so I think I have pretty good spread, decent color and good growth.

As the tank grows in, I am getting some shaded spots, and the center area where I keep my clams on the sand bed is acceptable, but I think I would like more light. Both for the clams, and I would like to get good color from the SPS on the sand bed. I can already grow them on the sand bed, but the color and growth is obviously not as good as the corals higher up.

Would I get better results from going with another lumenarc in the center, and really hitting all the areas with light from a 250w, or would I be better off and get that superb color that the 400watt tanks seem to get?

I already have a 3rd lumen Arc, so I would just need to buy another ballast, or for about the same amount of money, I could just purchase the 400w bulbs since the ballast I have can run 250 or 400?

I guess the real question, is there real difference in the color from 250w and 400w. Or is the fantastic colors more from nutrient management?

 

[Alex T.]

The 400 watt Radium is really a 360 watt bulb. It's not much of a difference difference if you run it on a standard electronic ballast which will generally run it under 400 watts. The 250 watt Radium is an HQI, single ended bulb that shines on an M80 ballast, pulling approximately 330 watts; so it's really not a 250 watt bulb at all.

People who go with 400 watt Radiums (myself included) tend to overdrive the bulb to get that crisp white with blue tint look, while getting a lot more par out of the bulb. I run them on Galaxy 400 watt ballasts which were almost designed for those who want to overdrive the 400 watt Radium. I believe it pulled 454 watts out of the bulb on Sanjay's lighting tests. You sacrifice bulb life span though.

In the end, it's up to you, but I think your current setup is just fine for what you want to keep. I have a very low aquascape and use Lumenmax Elite reflectors to drive the light deep into the tank because I want to grow SPS almost anywhere, and really like clams. If I was doing an equally mixed reef, I'd probably run 250 watt bulbs or t5.

 

[mc-cro]

Thanks for the input. I should have mentioned I am running the Lumatek dimmable ballast.
Based on research I did when I purchased them, they should be driving the 250W just about right. I understand on the 400w radium, they dont provide the exact right wattage and may need to be replaced about every 6months.

I really like the white light with a blue tint on the 250w.

but, I wonder if there is truly a color difference by just using 400w?

 

[biggles]

There is always the option of adding a 400W radium to the center - 250/400/250. You can then see if the added intensity from the 400W radium makes a difference to your colonies without totally committing to all 250W or all 400W bulbs until you are sure which way you want to go.

 

[sirreal63]

I would stick with the 250's, there is very little reason to go with 400's on that tank. The bulbs will last a lot longer and the color will be consistent.

 

[Alex T.]

Thanks for the input. I should have mentioned I am running the Lumatek dimmable ballast.
Based on research I did when I purchased them, they should be driving the 250W just about right. I understand on the 400w radium, they dont provide the exact right wattage and may need to be replaced about every 6months.

I really like the white light with a blue tint on the 250w.

but, I wonder if there is truly a color difference by just using 400w?

Having seen both the 250 and 400 watt Radiums, I'd say they both look very identical to my eye. The only difference is that the 400 watt versions are a bit brighter, but the color looks exactly the same to my eye. If I wasn't running an SPS dominated tank with plans for many clams on and around the sand bed I would have been running the 250 watt Radiums or maybe even t5's. In a mixed coral tank, I really think the 250 watt radiums are more than enough on your ballast, and with a properly planned aquascape and good reflectors, 2 are more than enough. I have only two 400 watt Radiums on my 6 foot tank, but my aquascape only occupies the middle 4 feet with plenty of open sand space to the sides.

Here's a good example of a 60" length, 36" wide SPS dominated tank running only two halides in good reflectors with TOTM worthy results:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/totm/index.php

Mind you these are 400 watt bulbs, but the tank is almost exclusively SPS.

 

[mc-cro]

Thanks Alex, the link you provided and your comments are exactly what has me considering the 400w bulbs. Just to be clear, I am referring to the color of the SPS, not the bulbs. But it is good to know they bulb color is basically the same.

My tank is completely an SPS tank, I am sitting in front of the tank and just counted 48 different fuzzy sticks, and 5 LPS hidden under some overhangs. With some clams on the sand bed.

Those colors in Sunnyx tank are incredible, and they are 400watt bulbs. All of these incredible tanks with the ultimate colors all have 400w.

Can you achieve that type of with 250w? Or is there something about just completely hammering them with 400w that brings out that extra little bit?

 

[Alex T.]

Thanks Alex, the link you provided and your comments are exactly what has me considering the 400w bulbs. Just to be clear, I am referring to the color of the SPS, not the bulbs. But it is good to know they bulb color is basically the same.

My tank is completely an SPS tank, I am sitting in front of the tank and just counted 48 different fuzzy sticks, and 5 LPS hidden under some overhangs. With some clams on the sand bed.

Those colors in Sunnyx tank are incredible, and they are 400watt bulbs. All of these incredible tanks with the ultimate colors all have 400w.

Can you achieve that type of with 250w? Or is there something about just completely hammering them with 400w that brings out that extra little bit?

Not to throw a wrench in your plans, but 250 watt Radiums do just fine. I would love to have the colors in any of these tanks:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-01/totm/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/75-tank-of-the-month
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/58-tank-of-the-month

 

[mc-cro]

Okay, thats what I needed to see. If Mark Polleti and Dan Rigle are running 250W Radiums, then I am satistified.

thank you for looking those up.

 

[deepseadan]

After experimenting with different reflectors and mh se bulbs, I think 250 watt radiums or Hamilton's for that matter, have plenty of light to produce amazing coral corals. I think the reflector makes more of a difference than wattage anymore, at least at the 250 to 400 watt range. In my experience, SPS color has been more related to proper nutrient management. To much nutrients and the corals tend to darken towards brown and lose color, to little nutrients the corals seem to lighten and lose color as well. I do have to say, just very recently I started using Korallen-Zucht Zeovit Pohls Xtra and Coral Vitalizer (from the advice of others on RC) and I really have seen color and growth improvements on my SPS. I thought this stuff was snake oil, but I am slowly but surely being proven wrong. Finally to answer your question, I would go 250 watt bulbs.

 

[110galreef]

what did you ever end up doing ....

I have been running my SPS dominate tank (66x36x24) for the last 2 years w/only 250w MH's......Not supplements yet either. ballast use 292w each..

First 8-12mos or so was was a 48" light fixture, then last 12 mos has been hamilton cayman sun DE reflectors phoenix 14k bulbs and lumatek balast 250w HQi setting...bulbs about 12" from water and good light spread. Growth is probably slow in general but colors seem pretty good.

I have considered:

-adding 2-4 60" t-5's or VHO's 744w or 904w(2/4 t-5) or 864w 2 VHO

-adding a 3 250 MH' in the center 876w

-adding 16 CREE XM-L LED's for a high noon punch for a few hrs a day...along with 2 T-5,s / 2 VHO's or 2 rails of RB led's ~805w

-And more recently swapping ballast and running 2 400w MH's, raiding them up a few inches.... ~ 800w or with 2 t-5's ~ 960w

My tanks is a basement setup and can pretty much use/handle the heat, plus tank is in wall and has it's own fish room that is about 14' x 25'.....

The 3 MH's i like the least.....Just one more bulb to replace, another reflector and balast to buy...

here is a phone pic(nnot best but anyway colors washed out in pic for sure....orange cap is bright as is the RBTA for example....

 

[mc-cro]

I did end up buying a 3rd Lumatek ballast in preparation for installing the 3rd 250W radium in the center. I decided that what I really wanted was more even spread from 3 bulbs at 750W, than 2 really intense 400w. At 24" (<20" at sand bed), I really dont need the 400w, and I *should* be able to get just as good color from the SPS.

I could easily continue to get by with just the current 2. However, due to my rock layout, which is similiar to yours, I want the light to be on the outside edges of my 2 rock structures, plus then inside portions of the rockwork facing each other tend to be shaded and not grow. I want to grow SPS and clams on the sand bed down the center of the tank too, so the 3rd bulb in the center just makes the most sense.

Fwiw, I bought a PAR meter so I can get some real information before I make any changes at all. UPS delivered the meter last night, and I got a chance to wire it up, but not before the MH went off.

I run 2 48" VHO 50/50 tubes just to bring some natural color back in from the intense Radium, and for sunrise/sunset type of lighting.

From just playing with the PAR meter last night, these old VHO bulbs basically add nothing to the amount of PAR the corals are getting. but my bulbs are several years old.

 

[110galreef]

sweet, keep the par tests coming!

 

[deepseadan]

I did end up buying a 3rd Lumatek ballast in preparation for installing the 3rd 250W radium in the center. I decided that what I really wanted was more even spread from 3 bulbs at 750W, than 2 really intense 400w. At 24" (<20" at sand bed), I really dont need the 400w, and I *should* be able to get just as good color from the SPS.

I could easily continue to get by with just the current 2. However, due to my rock layout, which is similiar to yours, I want to light to be on the outside edges of my 2 rock structures, plus then inside portions of the rockwork facing each other tend to be shaded and not grow. I want to grow SPS and clams on the sand bed down the center of the tank too, so the 3rd bulb in the center just makes the most sense.

Fwiw, I bought a PAR meter so I can get some real information before I make any changes at all. UPS delevered the meter last night, and I got a chance to wire it up, but not before the MH went off.

I run 2 48" VHO 50/50 tubes just to bring some natural color back in from the intense Radium, and for sunrise/sunset type of lighting.

From just playing with the PAR meter last night, these old VHO bulbs basically add nothing to the amount of PAR the corals are getting. my bulbs are several years old.

What par meter did you get? I'm guessing apogee? Or did you get just the sensor for the multimeter? Just wondering because I want to buy the sensor, but not sure if its as accurate, or easy to use.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[mc-cro]

I bought the apogee sensor only.

its just as easy. you have to solder the sensor wires to the multimeter wires. Then set the meter to measure in mV, multiply the reading by 5.

 

[jerpa]

I bought the apogee sensor only.

its just as easy. you have to solder the sensor wires to the multimeter wires. Then set the meter to measure in mV, multiply the reading by 5.

+1

Even cheap mutimeters are accurate enough for our purposes. You lose data logging and averages but I never saw myself using those functions. Oh, and you save $200.

 

[mc-cro]

So, here is my PAR map from today before I installed the 3rd 250 Radium

2x250W Radium Lumatek Ballast
10 months old
LumenArc III Mini reflectors
bulb is 14" from water surface
Tank 60x26Wx24T

please excuse the crap picture. I just grabbed something to put some numbers on. After taking readings I installed the 3 brandnew radium in the center position. I will let it burn in for for 10hrs, take a reading, then I will let it burn in for a total of about 100 hrs, and then take another reading. I want a reading of the new bulb, after its been running a couple of weeks to compare to the older bubls.


as a side note, I was a little surprised by the readings. I expected them to be a little higher.

 

[rlpardue]

This is quite a relevant thread for me personally; I've been enjoying the discussion. I'm about 3 months away from moving from a 75g SPS tank with 2x250w 20k XM bulbs to a standard 6-foot 150g tank. The fixture I have for the 150g has 3x SE slots for MH bulbs; I have 3 250w old-style IceCap electronic ballasts (non-HQI). I've been concerned that I just won't have the PAR values I want throughout the tank, so I've been wondering if I could use a 400w bulb/ballast for the middle SE slot, and use 250w bulbs/ballasts for the SE slots on the sides. Does anyone know if the wiring itself needs to be different? (Meaning can I screw in a single-ended 400w bulb and wire up a new 400w ballast for the center bulb?).

I'm interested in seeing the results of your added bulb.

Oh, and a last note - I think I live in perhaps the ideal reefer home. I own a townhome/rowhouse and pay a flat rate for electricity each month since all the homes are wired together and we pool the bill. 400w here we come

 

[biggles]

I had 2x250W radiums over my 4x2x2 and then changed to 2x400W radiums, all were over driven. I placed a 250W beside a 400W one day just to see how big a diff there was - dramatic and very obvious so i wouldn't recommend running a 400W in between 2x250W radiums rlpardue. Btw my house is not metered at all which is why halides and reverse cycle air conditioning make my place very reef friendly.........:lol2:
Sorry but no longer have pics to show as tank crashed with no power a long time ago and i'm only returning now - with radiums of course. I always changed out the radiums every 6 months and used the bulbs for a further 3 months each over a frag tank, worked out well for bulb costs. I ran the 250W's 4" off the water and anything below about halfway had to be an sps that was not high light demanding, deep water acros loved it, hope my experience helps with your decision.

 

[deepseadan]

I had 2x250W radiums over my 4x2x2 and then changed to 2x400W radiums, all were over driven. I placed a 250W beside a 400W one day just to see how big a diff there was - dramatic and very obvious so i wouldn't recommend running a 400W in between 2x250W radiums rlpardue. Btw my house is not metered at all which is why halides and reverse cycle air conditioning make my place very reef friendly.........:lol2:
Sorry but no longer have pics to show as tank crashed with no power a long time ago and i'm only returning now - with radiums of course. I always changed out the radiums every 6 months and used the bulbs for a further 3 months each over a frag tank, worked out well for bulb costs. I ran the 250W's 4" off the water and anything below about halfway had to be an sps that was not high light demanding, deep water acros loved it, hope my experience helps with your decision.

What reflectors were you using with your old setup?