40 breeder sump layout and plumbing

[YamahaF934]

I am going to begin a 140 gallon reef tank build.

Let me know if there is anything I should change about my sump layout and plumbing. Is the Mag 18 too much water flow for this setup?

 

[uncleof6]

Drop both drains in the skimmer section where the water needs to be, rather than turning your fuge into a garbage dump. Feed the fuge with a branch from the return pump. IME and IMHO, the mag 18 is not enough pump, you are going to need 1.5" return pipe if you want any flow out mag 18, (per danner instructions) and you are going to want a better drain system than dual Dursos, noisy and unstable at your proposed flow rates.

Other things: Do not use valves in the drain lines. These are blockage risks, and only make the problems associated with open channel (durso) standpipes worse. Do not branch open channel drain lines (same issue.) Only use a valve in a siphon drain line. Eliminate the bubble trap/media tower from your plan--the media will just produce nitrates, completely unnecessary. If you use socks, dump the drains directly into the socks, and leave it at that, within the skimmer section.

The sump design is good, but then you already knew that.

 

[TheAquatard]

I really push the herbie overflow method. I have switched and will never look back. If the tanks going to be in a living room or a bedroom like mine complete silence is priceless. It also gives you the ability to move alot more water. Other wise I like your set up

 

[YamahaF934]

Here is an updated layout. I was researching Melvereef.com and he suggested the direct flow to the fuge. You dont like that idea?


The UV sterilizer is plumbed into the return because someone told me a mag 18 would be too much flow.

What about upgrades down the road. Any other in sump equipment I should plan for to make skimmer section or return sections larger? I have heater, ATO, Probes.

Thanks for the advice. I am open to it all.

 

[uncleof6]

Here is an updated layout. I was researching Melvereef.com and he suggested the direct flow to the fuge. You dont like that idea?

Nope, there is nothing coming down that drain line, that you want or need in the fuge. There is nothing that the skimmer will take out of the water, that you need in the fuge. Dumping a drain line in the fuge, simply turns it into a garbage dump.


The UV sterilizer is plumbed into the return because someone told me a mag 18 would be too much flow.

Sterilizers are also a debatable topic. (killing beneficial bacteria, is not one of the subjects)

Did they tell you why it was too much flow? If they mentioned anything about dwell time around the skimmer, or in the fuge, they were discussing myths. The flow rate through the sump has nothing to do with these things, and the higher flow the better--keeps the whole sump from turning into a garbage dump.

What about upgrades down the road. Any other in sump equipment I should plan for to make skimmer section or return sections larger? I have heater, ATO, Probes.

Return section needs to have enough volume of water to run for several days without attention, even though you are planning an ATO system, they can and do fail. What you listed can all run in the return section.

Thanks for the advice. I am open to it all.

I am not trying to pick you all to pieces, rather save you some headaches.

For instance, with dual open channel drains, (dursos,) and certainly you won't be running a siphon system configured in this manner--it is not safe, you will have a source of bubbles coming in from two directions. Considering you have split one of these lines, it will make more bubbles. The valves you have in these lines, are strongly NOT recommended, as they make the problems with open channel drains greater, and make the system less safe. For this tank, if you use a durso, or any machination of the theme, and gimmicks, you will be wanting 1.5" drain lines, for a laminar (non turbulent--no issues) flow rate at around 350 gph per line--with no valves and no tee offs, then you have to get them to balance. Otherwise excedrin headache number 1 & 2.

You will also need 1.5" return line for the danner mag 18 pump. This is per the instructions. 3/4" is not going to get it done with these particular pumps.

700 gph through this tank is 5x, and IMO, the low end of the scale. Tee the return pump, to feed the fuge in that manner you won't be messing with the drain lines, you need them to work with no problems.

 

[Rybren]

Doesn't the Mag18 push 1800gph at zero head? Does the flow drop off that drastically that it wouldn't be enough pump for this setup?

 

[YamahaF934]

No you are not picking me apart. This is my first sump setup and I REALLY only want to do it once. So all the advice is really appreciated. Which is why I posted on this forum.

How would a Herbie overflow work with dual overflows at the corners of the tank. Like there is one 1 inch bulkhead and one 3/4 inch bulkhead on each corner of the tank. It is set up with durso overflows right now.

I am starting this tank dry and planning everything from the beginning. This tank will be an upgrade from a 72 gallon with all hang on equipment.

Here is another updated blueprint.

 

[uncleof6]

Doesn't the Mag18 push 1800gph at zero head? Does the flow drop off that drastically that it wouldn't be enough pump for this setup?

Depends on a number of variables. Pipe size, fittings, lengths of pipe etc., as well as static lift. At 4' static, the rate is down to 1375 out of the gate, and with 3/4" pipe down more. Split to feed this or that, more pipe more fittings, yeah very easily not enough pump--especially if you want 10x.

 

[uncleof6]

No you are not picking me apart. This is my first sump setup and I REALLY only want to do it once. So all the advice is really appreciated. Which is why I posted on this forum.

How would a Herbie overflow work with dual overflows at the corners of the tank. Like there is one 1 inch bulkhead and one 3/4 inch bulkhead on each corner of the tank. It is set up with durso overflows right now.

I am starting this tank dry and planning everything from the beginning. This tank will be an upgrade from a 72 gallon with all hang on equipment.

Here is another updated blueprint.

Looking better now Now you have to deal with the pump/pipe size thing. I understand the fitting sizes, however, that mag pump needs 1.5" pipe.

The herbie is relatively simple, a siphon and a dry emergency. Siphon on the smaller bulkhead, and dry emergency on the larger bulkhead. Flow capacity: 1500 gph +

<a href="http://s655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/?action=view&current=60cube-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/uncleof6/60cube-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

 

[YamahaF934]

Okay Thanks for the help uncleof6,

I am understanding the plumbing a little more now. With the Herbie, I would be using all four bulkheads as drains for this system to work correct?

What about returns? I didnt want to have PVC on the backside of the tank.

As far as the mag 18. The outlet fitting is only 3/4" so having 1.5" pipe does not seem reasonable.

 

[nanoreef13]

This looks good....I love 40b

 

[TheAquatard]

You really only need one full syphon drain and one emergency drain for the herbie, you can achieve very Hugh gph. I'll take some pictures when I get home tonight

 

[Rybren]

Depends on a number of variables. Pipe size, fittings, lengths of pipe etc., as well as static lift. At 4' static, the rate is down to 1375 out of the gate, and with 3/4" pipe down more. Split to feed this or that, more pipe more fittings, yeah very easily not enough pump--especially if you want 10x.

Thanks uncle

 

[YamahaF934]

I have decided to change to a herbie style overflow.

I will use the 1 inch bulkhead at the syphon. Do I use 1 inch piping below also or do I step that up at all?

The 3/4 inch drain will be for the emergency.

Does this system work with two overflows like that?

I will step up the return line to 1 inch. I feel like 1.5 inch is a little overkill but I will look into it. Should I include two return lines or just one with a seaswirl in the middle of the tank?

 

[Rybren]

uncleof6 has been around for a long time and knows his stuff. If he tells you that you'll need a 1 1/2" return to get the MAG18 running at its best, believe him.

The choice is yours, but I highly suspect that if you only use the 1", sometime down the road you'll be swapping it out.

 

[YamahaF934]

Haha Okay Okay I will listen.

Would one return work okay or should I split it into two?
So do I just downsize when I get to the 3/4 inch seaswirl.

 

[uncleof6]

I have decided to change to a herbie style overflow.

I will use the 1 inch bulkhead at the syphon. Do I use 1 inch piping below also or do I step that up at all?

The 3/4 inch drain will be for the emergency.

Does this system work with two overflows like that?

I will step up the return line to 1 inch. I feel like 1.5 inch is a little overkill but I will look into it. Should I include two return lines or just one with a seaswirl in the middle of the tank?

3/4" Bulkhead: 1" siphon standpipe, 1" plumbing below the bulkhead to the sump. 3/4" is useless, too small.

1" Bulkhead: 1" dry emergency standpipe, open pipe whatever, 1" below the bulkhead.

Why: So the emergency drain has a HIGHER capacity than the main siphon drain. Because of the 3/4" bulkhead, the capacity of the siphon line will be less than the emergency.

The full capacity of a single 1" siphon, is 1500 - 1800 gph. Two of them of course would be double that: 3000 - 3600. No way you are going to need that sort of capacity. Would be interesting to see if dual herbies, can be balanced, and work well.

SeaSwirl? Just going to kill the flow. Honestly, not of much value other than that.

 

[Reefnut2010]

Use the 3/4 holes for returns. Use the 1" holes for syphons. One open line and one emergency line. If you can make those bigger I'd jump up to 1.5" on both syphon lines. You won't need more than that !

 

[kory1006]

Is there a reason for dual overflows? Especially now that you plan on plumbing the fuge using the return. Balancing two herbies can be an ongoing task.

I did a single overflow in my 40b with 1" for both the main and emergency drain. Set it up 4 months ago, and havent had to mess with it since. Like everyone said, it's dead silent and bubble free.

 

[YamahaF934]

No reason to have 2 overflows. My tank is pre-drilled for two. So? I was worried about being able to get both of them to work together. Not sure if its possible.

My tank is 140 gallons so a little bigger than a 40b.

Reffnutt2010: How would I make one an open line and one emergency line? Wouldn't this make the other overflow box a stagment water area? Also it is dangerous to expand a glass hole?