mmittlesteadt
New member
[Ricky Ricardo voice on:] "Lucy, you have some esplainin' to do" [Ricky Ricardo voice off:]
Well, here's the thing...and yeah, its long...
When I was younger I went to school and studied biology. I'm a naturalist. I'm an animal behaviorist. I'm a wildlife artist (which requires study in animal behaviors, habitats, etc). I've closely studied animals my entire life, both out of curiosity and professionally. I've personally kept freshwater fish for over 35 years, some as part of my studies. I've managed two independent LFS's that kept FW and SW FOWLR for years. I'm only a newbie to keeping corals. I have close friends that are scientists in some manner or another. One is a marine biologist. Another is a physician who has opened 5 wellness centers in three countries and has written three books on stress, stress management and how it relates to disease. Yet another studies microbiology and disease control both in labs and in the field. We talk about this stuff all the time.
I had a very long post all written up on how the single most important thing when caring for creatures of all kinds (including ourselves) is eliminating or reducing stressors which lead to breakdowns and openings in the protective immune system. I never posted it because I knew it would be met with resistance. There is no pathogen on earth that can cause illness to any creature with a healthy immune system. It is impossible, regardless of the existence of pathogens in the environment. If that were not true, every living thing would be sick all the time and eventually die off.
However, pathogens gotta eat too and will always be on a never ending search for a chink in our immune system's protective armor. And it does not have to be much of an opening to get in. Regardless of how closely we observe we can never be sure that fish in our care are completely stress free and so have a fully functioning immune system. We can observe their behavior and feeding habits, their interactions with their environment and tankmates, yet we will still never know 100% for sure that pathogens can't affect them. The immune system is not measurable. So in that regard, QT is important. But aside from QT being a hospital tank, it is (for the most part) an isolated observation platform. But how that relates to stress is often overlooked. Most QT systems are designed to be sterile and clean environments so as to not introduce pathogens. These QT tanks are, by their very nature, inducing stress in the fish that are kept there because fish do not live in sterile environments devoid of the components that make them feel safe. All the while they are under QT, they are also under stress, regardless of how sterile their environment is. Their immune system is compromised from stress, but with luck, in QT hopefully there are also no pathogens to take advantage of that. It is a catch 22 scenario.
I've set up and maintained both FW and SW FOWLR tanks at the LFS's I ran where I purposely ran experiments testing theories on this. Much to the dismay of some, I actually put fish with ich (both FW and SW) in these stable and stress free environments along with the healthy fish already inhabiting it. I should add that the fish with ich were still in the early stages of it. In every instance, not only did the healthy fish NOT get ich, the ones with ich recovered without adding any kind of treatment to the tank. Why? The healthy fish were stress free and had strong immune systems so they were unaffected. The ones that had ich were now living in a stress free environment, allowing their immune systems to recover and combat it all on their own.
We live in a society where we fear everything and understand very little. We have a drug for anything and everything, but we don't live healthy lifestyles, from the horribly toxic prepackaged food we eat, to the hectic, fast paced lifestyle that leads to high levels of stress. We are so sick and diseased as a society that doctors can now specialize in one thing and stay employed. Why is that? Doctors now even realize the effects of stress and release patients sooner to recover at home because its been proven that recovering in the sterile, stressful environment of a hospital is just not as beneficial to healing as it is being in the comfort of home.
Band-aids and anti-bacterial creams do not heal cuts and casts do not heal broken bones. Animals' bodies, under no stress with healthy immune systems heal themselves. Ever watch how a cut on you heals up? What a miracle it is that the tissue repairs itself, as if by magic. Except it is NOT magic. It is by nature's design.
I am not advocating eliminating QT, at least for observation. But I would rather observe a fish in its natural habitat, where I can monitor its behavior and feeding over the course of a month, than I would putting it through some kind of stressful sterile isolation. I do have a 20 gallon QT tank all set up, complete as a natural stress free habitat, strictly for observation. I just haven't had the need to use it because I am in the enviable position of working where the fish I want are already in (essentially) natural observation tanks where I've been very watchful over their care and any new additions, if any.
The only thing I rushed were my initial purchases. Even at that, those fish were observed by me for over a month. But my tank was only borderline ready. All my water parameters were perfect. Every single addition to my tank since then was well thought out. I added my recent one (the lawnmower blenny) because my tank was ready for it as it has a lot of algae to graze, and the blenny had been grazing at the LFS for over a month as well as eating prepared foods. Not one single addition to my tank caused an ammonia spike. My system is stable, parameters are perfect, and each addition is fulfilling a niche in my tank without competition for food, space or hiding places.
Could something go wrong? Well, heck even under the best of circumstance and the most careful QTing, things still can happen and unfortunately do. That's life. I'm not necessarily rushing things or taking any greater chance than anyone else. I'm just doing it differently than the norm. I'm keenly aware of how my tank and the animals in it are functioning. All is well. I'm not worried, neither for myself nor the animals I care for.
I wouldn't ever post this in its own thread, because I know all too well what kind of arguments and backlash it would cause. My wife, kids and I deal with this all the time in our own lives because we don't vaccinate, take drugs of any kind and we eat healthy, organic food and live a relatively stress free life. Everyone around us is sick all the time with one thing or another, take drugs for this and that like it was candy and can't understand why me and my family hasn't had so much as a cold in almost ten years. Go figure.
If you had a baby would you quarantine it before bringing it home? If you bought a puppy or a kitten would you? Why is it that because these animals live in water they get treated so differently? They are no different other than their environment is wet. The entire planet is filled with pathogens and you'd think we'd all be sick and diseased all the time listening to some who incessantly worry. There are two factions that are always at odds with each other. There are those that spend their time combating illness and disease and then there are those that promote health and wellness. The common denominator between both sides is stress and it's really given very little thought by some, while others believe it has EVERYTHING to do with health.
Now, what can I add next? I'm thinking a couple of Banghai Cardinals that are sitting in a tank here. Beautiful fish.
Well, here's the thing...and yeah, its long...
When I was younger I went to school and studied biology. I'm a naturalist. I'm an animal behaviorist. I'm a wildlife artist (which requires study in animal behaviors, habitats, etc). I've closely studied animals my entire life, both out of curiosity and professionally. I've personally kept freshwater fish for over 35 years, some as part of my studies. I've managed two independent LFS's that kept FW and SW FOWLR for years. I'm only a newbie to keeping corals. I have close friends that are scientists in some manner or another. One is a marine biologist. Another is a physician who has opened 5 wellness centers in three countries and has written three books on stress, stress management and how it relates to disease. Yet another studies microbiology and disease control both in labs and in the field. We talk about this stuff all the time.
I had a very long post all written up on how the single most important thing when caring for creatures of all kinds (including ourselves) is eliminating or reducing stressors which lead to breakdowns and openings in the protective immune system. I never posted it because I knew it would be met with resistance. There is no pathogen on earth that can cause illness to any creature with a healthy immune system. It is impossible, regardless of the existence of pathogens in the environment. If that were not true, every living thing would be sick all the time and eventually die off.
However, pathogens gotta eat too and will always be on a never ending search for a chink in our immune system's protective armor. And it does not have to be much of an opening to get in. Regardless of how closely we observe we can never be sure that fish in our care are completely stress free and so have a fully functioning immune system. We can observe their behavior and feeding habits, their interactions with their environment and tankmates, yet we will still never know 100% for sure that pathogens can't affect them. The immune system is not measurable. So in that regard, QT is important. But aside from QT being a hospital tank, it is (for the most part) an isolated observation platform. But how that relates to stress is often overlooked. Most QT systems are designed to be sterile and clean environments so as to not introduce pathogens. These QT tanks are, by their very nature, inducing stress in the fish that are kept there because fish do not live in sterile environments devoid of the components that make them feel safe. All the while they are under QT, they are also under stress, regardless of how sterile their environment is. Their immune system is compromised from stress, but with luck, in QT hopefully there are also no pathogens to take advantage of that. It is a catch 22 scenario.
I've set up and maintained both FW and SW FOWLR tanks at the LFS's I ran where I purposely ran experiments testing theories on this. Much to the dismay of some, I actually put fish with ich (both FW and SW) in these stable and stress free environments along with the healthy fish already inhabiting it. I should add that the fish with ich were still in the early stages of it. In every instance, not only did the healthy fish NOT get ich, the ones with ich recovered without adding any kind of treatment to the tank. Why? The healthy fish were stress free and had strong immune systems so they were unaffected. The ones that had ich were now living in a stress free environment, allowing their immune systems to recover and combat it all on their own.
We live in a society where we fear everything and understand very little. We have a drug for anything and everything, but we don't live healthy lifestyles, from the horribly toxic prepackaged food we eat, to the hectic, fast paced lifestyle that leads to high levels of stress. We are so sick and diseased as a society that doctors can now specialize in one thing and stay employed. Why is that? Doctors now even realize the effects of stress and release patients sooner to recover at home because its been proven that recovering in the sterile, stressful environment of a hospital is just not as beneficial to healing as it is being in the comfort of home.
Band-aids and anti-bacterial creams do not heal cuts and casts do not heal broken bones. Animals' bodies, under no stress with healthy immune systems heal themselves. Ever watch how a cut on you heals up? What a miracle it is that the tissue repairs itself, as if by magic. Except it is NOT magic. It is by nature's design.
I am not advocating eliminating QT, at least for observation. But I would rather observe a fish in its natural habitat, where I can monitor its behavior and feeding over the course of a month, than I would putting it through some kind of stressful sterile isolation. I do have a 20 gallon QT tank all set up, complete as a natural stress free habitat, strictly for observation. I just haven't had the need to use it because I am in the enviable position of working where the fish I want are already in (essentially) natural observation tanks where I've been very watchful over their care and any new additions, if any.
The only thing I rushed were my initial purchases. Even at that, those fish were observed by me for over a month. But my tank was only borderline ready. All my water parameters were perfect. Every single addition to my tank since then was well thought out. I added my recent one (the lawnmower blenny) because my tank was ready for it as it has a lot of algae to graze, and the blenny had been grazing at the LFS for over a month as well as eating prepared foods. Not one single addition to my tank caused an ammonia spike. My system is stable, parameters are perfect, and each addition is fulfilling a niche in my tank without competition for food, space or hiding places.
Could something go wrong? Well, heck even under the best of circumstance and the most careful QTing, things still can happen and unfortunately do. That's life. I'm not necessarily rushing things or taking any greater chance than anyone else. I'm just doing it differently than the norm. I'm keenly aware of how my tank and the animals in it are functioning. All is well. I'm not worried, neither for myself nor the animals I care for.
I wouldn't ever post this in its own thread, because I know all too well what kind of arguments and backlash it would cause. My wife, kids and I deal with this all the time in our own lives because we don't vaccinate, take drugs of any kind and we eat healthy, organic food and live a relatively stress free life. Everyone around us is sick all the time with one thing or another, take drugs for this and that like it was candy and can't understand why me and my family hasn't had so much as a cold in almost ten years. Go figure.
If you had a baby would you quarantine it before bringing it home? If you bought a puppy or a kitten would you? Why is it that because these animals live in water they get treated so differently? They are no different other than their environment is wet. The entire planet is filled with pathogens and you'd think we'd all be sick and diseased all the time listening to some who incessantly worry. There are two factions that are always at odds with each other. There are those that spend their time combating illness and disease and then there are those that promote health and wellness. The common denominator between both sides is stress and it's really given very little thought by some, while others believe it has EVERYTHING to do with health.
Now, what can I add next? I'm thinking a couple of Banghai Cardinals that are sitting in a tank here. Beautiful fish.
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I would add that close observation is required during that time. It's not as if I dump a new fish in and go on vacation.
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