46 Gallon (4 Months) - Constructive Critisism taken well - PLEASE HELP!

[triplefishryan]

First I'd like to just say I have done a TON of research and the one thing I've found is that everyone has a different opinion on just about everything. This site has been the most reliable, hence the post..! Thanks in advance, I'm excited to hear how I screwed up, what to do next, and (eventually) have a beautiful, successful tank! I am resiliant, I will never give up, and am addicted to knowledge, so fire away..,no offense taken.

THE START:
1-10-16...First mixed salt and tap water (which later i found read 185 on TDS meter). Put 10lbs of base rock, 15 lbs of live rock, 3" crushed coral argonite substrate. First 3/4 weeks only flow/filter was a crappy walmart wisper. (stupid, i know). After that I got the marineland canister filter rated for 75 gallons and kept the wisper hang on for the hell of it. LFS said no need for skimmer (yet?)

Anyways, I let it cycle, took readings, and added 2 snails and 2 hermit crabs after 3/4 weeks. In the meantime, I added about 10 more lbs of live rock, waited a till week 6 and added 2 clowns. They did AWESOME up until last night. (More on that soon)

Fast forward till now, I have about 40lbs of LR and the same 10lbs of base i added from the start. I have coraline algae starting to grow on them, which I hear is a good sign of overall tank health!?!?. So, mistake #1, as a newbie and finding conflicting research online, i trust my LFS..makes sense right? After 2 weeks of the tank adjusting to the pair of ocerlleriius clowns, the LFS sells me a yellow tang and LTA..neither of which i wanted, per say, or did enough research on. Needless to say yellow tang died after about 2 weeks. I think the clowns were bullying him, he was stressed, not eating/not enough nutritian, and died..Anemone died as well, but NOT in the tank, after about 2 weeks as well, im thinking fkrbthe same reason, as well as tank being way too young.?

After the losses, I told myself i'll let the tank recover at least 4 weeks prior to adding any fish. I love my inlaws, but sometimes they can be a little much...My father in law "surprises" me with an indian yellow-tail angel fish, the same LFS sells him. (they knew me/who he was/what was in my tank, etc). Okay, hes doing fine for a week, and after telling him thanks, but dont do it again, he couldnt resist...A week later, (3-21-2016) in comes a 3/4" Flagfin Angel...Needless to say, i intended on bringing it back, i didnt wnat to leave it in a bag over night and dont have a QT set up ...mistake #2...He kills the indian yellow tail over night, eats next day or so, stops eating at bottom of tank breathing heavy/fast, just like the tang, and dies 3 days after the angel, 4 days after inteoduction. From the start the flagfin was twitching and swimming erratically, and i thought it was a rivalry with the other angel or skmething, but coninued to do so after the other one died...Frustration at its finest..i knew it was gonna happen, tried buying soecial food bc i know they're picky, etc..whateve...all the while clowns doing great!

4-5-2016 - Both Clowns dead..one at the bottom center under LR, other wedged itself in a crevice if some figi LR which was discusting and difficult to take out. Both of their stomachs seems ripped open but thinking it was the hermit? Only thing that changed was i had nitrate pads in whisper filter (LFS idea) and took them out which spread a bunch of crap all around the tank...also topped it off with RODI water which was colder and may have shocked them? I put 2 gallons in and they were room temp, about 60F..? it cooled off the tank from 80-79...

I dont know what to do, i feel like my tank is screwed and idk if it is a parasite, too much too soon, or what...hermits and snails A-OKay! Please help, you can bash me, trash me, i dont care i want to learn from mistakes and i will mever give up. I dont care if i have to start over, i WILL make this perfect!!

Tank Params:
79F
1.024-1.025
Amonia - 0.0 - (API test kit read a lil this morning after clowns died? i couldnt find the otehr clown last night until i did 15% water change this morning so he was dead in there 24+ hrs)
nitrite-0
nitrate- usually always atound 5-10...now 20-30?
Calcium- 420
mag- ??
copper - 0
kH- 12 ..? (dont remeber last time)
pH - to start it was always lower, around 7.9- now its always 8.1 without fail

I do a 10 gallon water change with RODI water i buy from walmart-TDS reads 003 everytime...(swithed over after tang/anem died bc thought that was the problem, around 3/4 weeks ago)

I appreciate all of your help in advance!! I will give you prompt respinses with any questions or info you need!

 

[triplefishryan]

sorry that was so rediculously long and drawn out. What do you guys think about a skimmer? Some say you NEED it others say if you keep up on water changes its not nevessary...I am open to all suggestions!

Also, if i have to start over, i was thinkingabout just getting a 75 gallon or something bigger, because we all know the tank we have is alwayyyssss too small..!

 

[lpsouth1978]

What size tank is it? Also, I would get my hands on some different test kits. The API tests are notoriously inaccurate. Please also describe your setup, i.e - tank size, filtration type, lighting, powerheads/water movement, what are you feeding and how much, etc...

All of these things will help us help you.

 

[uncleL]

Sorry To hear about your loss! I would suggest that you read as much as you can before starting a saltwater tank. I would purchase a rodi & unit a good skimmer. Please list the equipment that you have with your tank.

 

[triplefishryan]

It is a 46 gallon tank. I have a marineland magniflow 220 canister filter running and a HOB tetra whisper ex70 filter from walmart (no bio-wheel). I was told at the LFS when I first started the tank that I wouldn't need a skimmer until I started adding more fish and just to upgrade to the canister filter. Other than that I have no power heads or other water movement, which I've been thinking I need to get sooner than later. The light came with the tank so I'm not sure the wattage off hand but its LED (white and blue) with a setting for just the blue LEDs to go on. (hope that helps)

I fed (everything is dead now) the clowns high quality pellets and frozen brine shrimp. When the angel appeared in my tank i ran out and got dried seaweed and frozen veggie cubes to try to please him after some reasearch. The indian yellow-tail would eat the seaweed and frozen veggie cubes along with a few pellets and seemed to be doing well with that, until the flagfin came along....

 

[lpsouth1978]

Unfortunately, canisters and HOB filters are not a very good choice for saltwater setups. You will need to clean them a minimum of 2x a week. You definitely need to get some more water movement in the tank. Ocean fish deal with LOTS of flow from birth and need it to stay healthy. Get a couple powerheads or wavemakers (better option). I use the Jebao RW pumps and really like them. Two RW-4 pumps would be great in that tank. You can find them on Amazon.

That light will be fine for fish, but if you plan on getting corals, you will need to upgrade it. The foods you used are ok, but there are better out there. Look for LRS foods, they are EXCELLENT and offer a variety of foods in one feeding.

I would also highly recommend getting a skimmer. Not only will it help keep the tank clean, but it will help oxygenate the tank.

My best guess to the cause of your problems, is that there is not enough flow and therefore the tank does not have enough oxygen, creating an apoxic environment. Wavemakers will help.

 

[morpheas]

Where are you located at? What I would do is hook up with my local reef club and go to an upcoming meeting and hang out. We reefers can talk hours about reefs and since you have a lot of things that you need to clear in your head and build a strategy it would be greatly beneficial to you....

Other than that, I believe that you have the syndrome that many of us have gone through, action before strategy/planning and research. It happens to everybody and the first step is recognizing it like you did. If I were you, before making any more moves, I'd go read the how to setup thread here marked with the arrow which has a lot of useful information.

 

[triplefishryan]

First off, thank's for your quick response..I do appreciate it!

After the recommendation and purchasing the canister filter, I've read that they're not the best for salt water setups. They are nitrate factories, as they say? However, i do have an airstone in the HOB which helps break the surface returning into the tank (I don't know how much that actually helps) and the canister return i have half in half out of the water which also breaks the surface for O2 exchange.

What type of skimmer would you recommend? HOB is ideal as a sump isn't really an option at the moment.

And how long should I wait to add fish? I find it strange that the clowns were eating and doing fine and literally 12-24 hours later I found them both dead. Leads me to believe either water quality or disease...? Maybe one of the angels had something? The flagfin was twitching and swimming erratically from the start. (not sure if it was stress, acclimation, or some sort of 'fighting dance' over territory with the other angel). Would an oxygen deficiency kill the clowns that quickly tho? Is there any way to test for a parasite or bacteria infection or signs? It seems odd that they lived through everything and showed no signs of stress or anything. Could it have been the nitrate pads I had in the HOB filter? I removed them and it clouded my tank with detritus, or so i believe thats what it was..?

 

[triplefishryan]

That would be great! I am in connecticut. Where can i find information on a local club?

To my defense, I was planning on waiting weeks after the tang died and letting my tank stabalize and design my tank around what I wanted. During that time my father in law went and got these angelfish and screwed everything up..!

 

[runningrandy04]

Sorry about your loss. It's always an emotional blow when something in your tank dies for no reason. You are not without hope though. There are several things you can do to help without the cost and effort spent on a full system with all the gadgets.

1. Find a new LFS !! This one is obviously all about money.
2. With the amount of live rock you have remove the HOB (keep for qt tank use) and use the canister with minimal filter pads as chemical media reactor.
3. As LPsouth just mentioned, I'm assuming the 2 filters are the only sources of flow in the tank. This may be the main problem you have. Dissolved oxygen is very important and is usually supplied by surface agitation or a skimmer. Sufficient flow within the tank is also extremely important. I would buy a cheap Hydor powerhead (costs about $50; buy better quality if in the budget) and point it towards the surface.
4. Your KH seems pretty high. I would bring your test kit to the LFS and ask to test their water to confirm or buy a second test kit. If it is actually high, waterchanges is the best way to fix it.
5. As far as water changes go, avoid getting into mixing stations and ro/di units until you are ready for that. They are great to have for future if you plan to upgrade but currently complicate things. I would go to the LFS with 4 5gal jugs and get saltwater from them monthly. Do a 5 gal waterchange weekly. Drop your heater into the jug for an hour before the change. Siphon the detritus off the bottom into another 5 gal bucket until full. Then pour in your 5 gal jug of saltwater ensuring temp and salinity match. DONE! Thats a monthly trip to LFS to top off CUC or gander around. You can continue to get ro/di from another source or from LFS to ensure 0 TDS.

 

[triplefishryan]

Thanks again -

1-I am definitely finding a new LFS, I'm obviously not happy with them!
2-I'll take the HOB off and use it for the QT tank I need to set up
3-As far as water changes go, i buy rodi water from walmart and mix my own. Usually do 8-10 gallons a week

But if everything did infact die due to disease, how can i find out? What measures shoudl I take to get rid of it before adding new fish? How do you remedy it?

 

[runningrandy04]

Unfortunately the only way to know is to add another fish. Not a good idea! Many fish diseases require a fish host to live, so leaving your tank fish-less for 9 weeks will get rid of those.
In the meantime, adding cleaner shrimp(if compatible with future fish) will bring life to the tank. This will also give your microfauna time multiply and the tank to stabilize.

 

[aznxgqb0yx]

Maybe your tank wasnt fully cycled, or you didnt acclimate them,? i have over 15+ fishes in my 40 breeder after like 2 months cycle.

 

[WWIII]

I ran 2 different fish only with live rock tanks for years with canister filters and no skimmer. (Before I really knew better) I loved the fish and the hobby, was in college when I started so on a really tight budget. Having said that I did have good success at keeping fish alive for years. I can't really remember what I was using in my canisters at the beginning, but towards the end I was using chemi pure and ceramic rings with a sponge filter on top. I used 2 appropriately sized powerheads and a appropriate sized heater. I made sure to watch my parameters, siphoned the tank while doing water changes twice a month. I think I was usually doing about 15% water changes making sure the new water was correct temperature and salinity. I also had around 1 lb of live rock per gallon in my tanks. So following... consistent water tests (keeping everything stable), using chemipure and ceramic rings in canister (cleaned twice a month), siphoning and water changes twice a month, and having correct temperature and good flow... I was able to relatively successfully keep happy health fish for several years. Having said all that, eventually algae will get very hard to handle down the road, and after you learn more about the hobby and methods you will realize a sump is by far the better way to go, but it is possible. I would also recommend a h.o.b. skimmer although I never had one (there's only so much equipment you want to look at in your display), a skimmer will help control algae issues bt keeping water quality up and nutrients down.

Hope some of this helps and makes a little sense! Good luck! You will learn a lot in the next months/years to come if you stick with it and take the time!

 

[AquaAdam]

What size tank is it? Also, I would get my hands on some different test kits. The API tests are notoriously inaccurate. Please also describe your setup, i.e - tank size, filtration type, lighting, powerheads/water movement, what are you feeding and how much, etc...

All of these things will help us help you.

What test kits are you using now lps? i had a batch of the api tests that were inaccurate too but they were the cheap ones.

 

[triplefishryan]

Thanks again for all your responses and help! It's very encouraging..!

Okay so one of the reasons I have been avoiding the sump project is because I've read online unless you drill the tank people have problems, due to the HOB sump equipment overflowing or malfunctioning due to power outages, etc. I've got a buddy of mine that just recently told me he has a 46 gallon bow front he would give me, so I could potentially drill that one and set it up properly. Then I ask myself if I'm going to do that much work, why don't I just get a bigger tank..?!...oh right, cash rules everything around me...

Question remaining is the skimmer....
I want to buy a skimmer ASAP, however, if I get this reef octopus skimmer, two questions:

1 - I was looking at the option between the HOB 1000 and 2000 models. If I were to get the 2000 model, that is advertised from 80 gallons (heavy load) - 200 gallons (light load), woudl that be too much? Are there any downsides to skimming too much, or having too strong of a skimmer?
2 - If I do end up using a sump down the road would that HOB skimmer still be a good choice and just hang it on the back of the skimmer section of the sump, or is that just crazy..? I think the answer would be that you can buy a much better skimmer in sump, however, I guess I just wouldn't want to throw it out if I decide to either upgrade to a bigger tank or throw a sump in down the road...

I clearly need to do more research, but figured I would start here!

In regards to test kits. I have the API test kits but would like to know the best test kits you can buy..?? Definitely need to double check everything. One time my tests looked like they were reading .25 ammonia and +20ppm nitrates (0 nitrites) and I brought the water to two stores and both showed all 0's...

Most recently, last night, (4-7-16) nitrates looked like they were pretty steady/if not rising, even after a water change just the other day. It looked about 40ppm on the API test kit...I was also sold a media reactor/nitrate reactor that I have heard conflicting results on the biopellets so have not used it...I didn't think I needed it if I kept up on water changes, but what are yall's opinions??

Thanks again!

 

[WWIII]

I would focus on getting the skimmer going and forget the reactor right now. Your canister filter is pretty much a reactor. I wouldnt run biopellets, just chemipure.

 

[SeattleReefer]

It's frustrating when fish die unexpectedly without an apparent cause. Personally I think all new saltwater enthusiasts should start off with damsels which are cheap, hardy, and eat readily.

 

[runningrandy04]

I wouldn't worry about having an extra hob skimmer when you upgrade. It can always be used on your QT tank. I still have a 10 year old AquaC Remora that I got used for my fist 20 gal. Now I use the skimmer and 20 gal as a QT. HOB skimmers usually don't perform well for the price they are. Find any decent one used.

As far as test kits go it's hard to keep current with the good ones. I check the premium reef sites like BRS as they only carry good brands and then compare prices from there.

 

[morpheas]

Thanks again for all your responses and help! It's very encouraging..!

Okay so one of the reasons I have been avoiding the sump project is because I've read online unless you drill the tank people have problems, due to the HOB sump equipment overflowing or malfunctioning due to power outages, etc. I've got a buddy of mine that just recently told me he has a 46 gallon bow front he would give me, so I could potentially drill that one and set it up properly. Then I ask myself if I'm going to do that much work, why don't I just get a bigger tank..?!...oh right, cash rules everything around me...

Question remaining is the skimmer....
I want to buy a skimmer ASAP, however, if I get this reef octopus skimmer, two questions:

1 - I was looking at the option between the HOB 1000 and 2000 models. If I were to get the 2000 model, that is advertised from 80 gallons (heavy load) - 200 gallons (light load), woudl that be too much? Are there any downsides to skimming too much, or having too strong of a skimmer?
2 - If I do end up using a sump down the road would that HOB skimmer still be a good choice and just hang it on the back of the skimmer section of the sump, or is that just crazy..? I think the answer would be that you can buy a much better skimmer in sump, however, I guess I just wouldn't want to throw it out if I decide to either upgrade to a bigger tank or throw a sump in down the road...

I clearly need to do more research, but figured I would start here!

In regards to test kits. I have the API test kits but would like to know the best test kits you can buy..?? Definitely need to double check everything. One time my tests looked like they were reading .25 ammonia and +20ppm nitrates (0 nitrites) and I brought the water to two stores and both showed all 0's...

Most recently, last night, (4-7-16) nitrates looked like they were pretty steady/if not rising, even after a water change just the other day. It looked about 40ppm on the API test kit...I was also sold a media reactor/nitrate reactor that I have heard conflicting results on the biopellets so have not used it...I didn't think I needed it if I kept up on water changes, but what are yall's opinions??

Thanks again!

On the test kits I would suggest Salifert as being the one that has affordable pricing at good resolution/results. If you don't mind spending the extra money you can always go with Elos or my personal favorite Red Sea (great quality). Finally, if you have eye/color problems like me, you can try Hanna Checkers alongside your traditional kits for reference (at least for the major numbers).

Extra equipment is never bad to have at hand. It can be used as a backup, as a seeding equipment for a new tank or maybe even sell.

Yes you can over-skim so to speak, I have seen several threads of people here that have done the experiment and have reported that the skimmer was not effective (low bubbles, erratic skimming etc). So I would not go too crazy on the oversizing but I would definitely oversize. I would probably go with the 1000 in your shoes.

Finally, I wouldn't use biopelets, not until you have a clear understanding of the ins and outs of your tank and your water chemistry. They easiest way I would choose would be to get the skimmer and as soon as it's broken in I would start dosing NoPoX when needed to control nutrients.