4x8x32 550gal in wall build

[camaroboy8691]

so , over the past few yrs i had a few ups and downs with bigger tanks that never took off some may recall them as i started threads that died but i purchased a 4x8 off a member on here then later sold it , then last yr i was going to build a plywood tank but due to business ventures that project got canned also . but i kept plaining for a big tank one day and well over the past few months i have been slowly making it finally come a reality .



here is a picture of the wall where it will be seen from our living area , since this photo was taken i have gotten the tile work done below the tank and on the floor in front of it {sorry my fish drawing is not the best}

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8336147102/" title="IMG_1749 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8215/8336147102_53d87d2d34.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1749"></a>


the stand we built for it at my shop , it is 3x6 tube steel 1/4 thick , with 6x6" legs , the stand hieght is 69" tall since our living area is a different elevation , you can see to the left and right there are doors these are our entrance , to the right there will be an office so you can also view the end of the tank from the office . i still have to paint the stand but hoping to do that in the next week

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8327993712/" title="IMG_1755 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8361/8327993712_f118e786f9.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1755"></a>

since the stand is so tall and has a 4x8 foot print im hoping to get all of the support equipment under the stand , such as sump , 2 55g drums for fresh water , and 1 as a mixing station , i have plenty of ceiling hieght which is 12' so i should be able to mount all of the lighting equipment with plenty of work area above the tank .

 

[camaroboy8691]

heres some of the tank , im building it myself out of 1" acrylic , it is 4x8x32 , but alittle smaller inside , and the over flow is at 29-1/2" , i choose an external over flow and hoping it works well .... but i did make a mistake when i glued it onto the tank , i didnt make it deep enough for a bean drain , but i think ill still be able to utilize a herb {i think} drain .

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8327933956/" title="IMG_1757 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8075/8327933956_2b4fcf2365.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1757"></a>

in this picture you can see my mistake in the over flow , looks close you can see where the bulk head is in relationship with the edge , its about 3/4 below it , i drilled it for 2 drains , so im hoping i can put a ball valve on the one to creat that false siphon , and then the other ill put a piece of pipe in it to make a overflow safety

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8335094219/" title="IMG_1766 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8221/8335094219_d5bba806c3.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1766"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8335093401/" title="IMG_1767 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8497/8335093401_c0924c11c2.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1767"></a>

i made the top bracing 1ft around the sides and 1ft down the middle , should give it plenty of strentgh , but still allow plenty of room to get into the tank

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8335091763/" title="IMG_1768 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8071/8335091763_06ec1f61f4.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1768"></a>

look closely and you can see the holes for the closed loop system , the big hole is the intake for the pumps , im hoping to use just 2 pumps for the closed loop , 1 side of the tank on each pump ,

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8335089905/" title="IMG_1769 by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8218/8335089905_b95308ce8f.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="IMG_1769"></a>

 

[Eli Jones]

Subscribed! Looks like another promising build!

 

[camaroboy8691]

i do have a good bit of equipment already , some i cant show right away becuase its hooked up to a temporary tank i have my fish in , i had a 70 gal tank setup that was over 3 yrs old and 3 months ago i had to take it down do to the remodel project , so my fish and the little coral i have are currently hanging out in a 200 gallon cattle trough .... its being ran with a make shift sump , pm bullet 2xl , blue line 70 pump , and a dart return pump . ill get some pics of that later on , its a rigged setup , but the fish love it , and its very stable .

anyways , for the closed loop on this tank , im thinking 2 dart pumps , with those flow educators should do the trick any thoughts on that ?

my idea for the rock scape is to have the back stacked with rock , and then a center rock pile about 1ft tall to hide those center return nozzles . in the center ill have 2 going to one side and 2 going to the other side .


what about a return pump for something like this any suggestions ?

 

[behrouz]

Hello.
I wish you best keep going.

 

[joe_himself]

Love in wall tanks.

 

[chriscobb]

Looks like your off to a good start....Following along as well!!!!!

 

[CyclistMT]

anyways , for the closed loop on this tank , im thinking 2 dart pumps , with those flow educators should do the trick any thoughts on that ?


what about a return pump for something like this any suggestions ?

Eductors won't work with Dart pumps as they require pressure to do what they do. You'll have to look for a pressure pump in the Reeflo line if you're going to use eductors (and they do work well).

For return pumps you can use a flow pump so a Dart or 2 may work for you there. Just need to figure out what you sump flow needs are first.




Good luck! Glad to see this finally coming together for you!

 

[Adamc1303]

Tagging along!

 

[camaroboy8691]

Eductors won't work with Dart pumps as they require pressure to do what they do. You'll have to look for a pressure pump in the Reeflo line if you're going to use eductors (and they do work well).

For return pumps you can use a flow pump so a Dart or 2 may work for you there. Just need to figure out what you sump flow needs are first.




Good luck! Glad to see this finally coming together for you!

hmm , so is there a way to figure out what pump to go with then ? there are a few different types to choose from . the holes i drilled in the bottom will take a 3/4" bulk head so the plumbing will be on the smaller side , but with 8 returns on one side and 6 on the other side i was figuring 3/4" pipe will be plenty

i may also plumb them so every other hole is one pump , and then the other hole is another pump , this way during the day i can turn on both pumps , and then at night time turn 1 pump off so there is less flow in the tank , i bought an APEX unit so im wondering if i can maybe program that to turn pumps on and off at random every few hours ? i have looked at the oceans motion units and really think i could benifit from one of them , but i think ill keep it simple with just pumps and timers .


im looking at these flow acclerators

http://www.aquacave.com/Flow-Accelerators--P1616C1133.aspx

i wonder what is better spinning or non spinning ?


for the sump , im going to look for a 4'x2'x2' tank and baffle it , put in 4 7" filter socks , id like to go bigger , but i really need to fit everything under the stand , along with the 2 55 gallon drums im also going to put a half 55 drum under there for live rock holding

the skimmer is a pm bullet 2xl so it can sit outside of the sump the pump on the skimmer is a blueline 70hd and that pumps 1750gph

so maybe 2 dart pumps will work good for a return ?

 

[CyclistMT]

Ok, let's pick this apart a bit and see if we can improve your design. I think you will eventually be disappointed in the way you have it.

In my opinion there are two ways to go about designing flow for a tank, with brute force or with finesse. And while at first glance finesse may seem like less flow from a gph standpoint, it can actually be more effcient flow but will still achieve the same end goal. But one thing you should be prepared for is that as corals grow in you may need to generate even more flow to ensure it gets everywhere. To do this you can always overbuild and dial back at first. Then you have headroom later when you need it.

hmm , so is there a way to figure out what pump to go with then ? there are a few different types to choose from . the holes i drilled in the bottom will take a 3/4" bulk head so the plumbing will be on the smaller side , but with 8 returns on one side and 6 on the other side i was figuring 3/4" pipe will be plenty.

First, your plumbing will dictate some of your pump needs as every elbow, T, and elevation will add "head" to the pump.The more head you have the less flow there will be. RC has a calculator to help you out but it may not have the pump listed that you want. Others on here can help you figure it out exactly but I just usally assume each elbow adds 1' of head and estimate it from there. I usually get pretty close.

Now, about your 3/4" holes. If you can enlarge them without weakening the bottom panel then do it. 3/4" will provide you good velocity which may seem like a lot of flow but it will actually restrict quite a bit of flow and give you a very narrow "channel" of water flowing out of each orifice which can be damaging to corals place to close to this flow. If you can enlarge them to 1" or better yet, 1.5" you can actually get more flow in the tank. If you can't enlarge all the holes then a few would be better than none.

i may also plumb them so every other hole is one pump , and then the other hole is another pump , this way during the day i can turn on both pumps , and then at night time turn 1 pump off so there is less flow in the tank , i bought an APEX unit so im wondering if i can maybe program that to turn pumps on and off at random every few hours ? i have looked at the oceans motion units and really think i could benifit from one of them , but i think ill keep it simple with just pumps and timers .

Don't reduce your flow at night. The ocean does not reduce flow at night. For all intents and purposes ocean current is constant (that's an oversimplification, I know). You also have tidal flows that change direction and I think there is more importance to this type of flow than we realize but I'm not smart enough to prove that. Someone else will have to. Anyway, the ocean may seem calmer at night as the wind dies down but you still have a stong current going on beneath the waves. Also, in our tanks, night is a lower oxygen point as everthing is now giving off CO2. The last thing you want to do is reduce the flow and reduce gas exchange. You could certainly use Apex timers to turn the pumps on and off but I would only do it for short periods to give the animals some slack time but that would be it. However it's probably not necessary. I wouldn't go with the Oceans Motion units either. I had one in the past. It was cool but it complicated plumbing and reduced flow rather then enhance it. You would be surprised how much random flow can be generated from laminar flow. After creating a gyre type flow in my tank I'm a convert. My aquascape breaks up the laminar flow and creates random patterns. Yes I still have laminar flow but the entire volume of water is moving creating more of a current type flow. Every six hours it changes directions.

im looking at these flow acclerators

http://www.aquacave.com/Flow-Accelerators--P1616C1133.aspx

i wonder what is better spinning or non spinning ?

I don't think either matters as I think those are a poor excuse for an eductor. If you're stuck with 3/4" then I would get these but you can get them in 1" too.

http://premiumaquatics.com/store/me..._Code=PA&Product_Code=KT-P-M07&Category_Code=

for the sump , im going to look for a 4'x2'x2' tank and baffle it , put in 4 7" filter socks , id like to go bigger , but i really need to fit everything under the stand , along with the 2 55 gallon drums im also going to put a half 55 drum under there for live rock holding

the skimmer is a pm bullet 2xl so it can sit outside of the sump the pump on the skimmer is a blueline 70hd and that pumps 1750gph

so maybe 2 dart pumps will work good for a return ?

So we're down to sump to tank flow. You will hear a lot, and I mean a lot, of people tell you to match your return flow to your skimmer processing and not to use your return pumps for flow in your tank. I think it's a bunch of bunk but that is my opinion so only you can decide if that's worth anything to you. The supporters of sump flow no more than 3 times tank volume per hour (or even exactly the same rate as the skimmer) will tell you that you need to slow the flow down to get the skimmer to get all the water processed. Unless you can get every molecule of water to go through the skimmer you'll never get it to process all the water on the first pass. Even if you could somehow do that, many, many, many water molecules will not get processed by the skimmer and will just flow through it. It will take multiple passes to process your tank water and since it's a closed system with constant input of organics (food, fish poop, etc) I believe the tank will reach a level state of skimmer export based on the skimmer effciency, not the amount of flow past the skimmer.

All that being said I'm running my return pumps at about 4-5 times my tank volume. Not a huge amount over the "recommended" but so far it seems sufficient. One thing to keep in mind is you can always increase velocity in the tank by stepping down your pipe size at the outlet but you can't increase flow with bigger pipe beyond what the pump can produce. You'll have to play with this as each tank will have unique needs. Extra velocity is not always bad depending on how it's implemented but it's not always the best thing either. My return pumps are connected to 1.25" pipe but I stepped that down at the outlet to 1" to increase velocity to push the water across 5 feet of tank. However, the outlets push the water along the glass and "bank" it off the front glass to get it moving in a circular pattern around the tank. This flow is not pointed directly at the rock work that will contain corals and it won't be as it would be too much velocity for the animals.

So, about the Darts... Let's say you go with the minimum spec of 3 times tank volume per hour, you need to move water at 1500 gals per hour. Depending on how much head you end up with on your return, 2 Darts may be able to accomplish this or more. If it's too much you can always valve them back (you can pretty much do this with any of the hobbiest pumps). But I had a Snapper (a Dart with a different impeller) and it was far from silent. Plus I had to replace the shaft seal in less than a year (I read about this happening a lot). Honestly I think there are better pumps out there. Something else to consider is your tank heating strategy (assuming you won't need to cool it). Submersible pumps can be a great way to heat a tank. You need to run the pump anyway you might as well get some heat for that effort and reduce or eliminate your actual heater needs. Once I get my tank fully enclosed I may be able to get away with no heater. But then I don't have to worry about chilling issues either. YMMV.



Whew, sorry this is so long but flow in a tank is a complicated topic although it doesn't have to be complicated to implement if you plan for it well at the outset. And I don't suggest you take my word for it. Do some more research on this subject and decide what will work best for your tank.

Good luck!




Current tunes: Halestorm - I Miss the Misery

 

[camaroboy8691]

wow , thanks for the reply , it did help , over the past few yrs i just kept reading and reading about setups and other things , but it still confuses me to a point but im alittle clearer .


for the plumbing , atleast for the closed loop i was hoping to use the flex pvc tubing and have it going to a central manifold for the pump output , i think i can get away doing it this way to help get rid of some extra elbows and stuff , {as long as someone doesnt come along and say long sweeping curves are worse than tight curves}

im on the fence about the 3/4" returns i wanted to install 1" but it was the only hole saw i had at my shop and after a few hours of contemplating it i figured it would be more than enough , especially with the amount of returns im using

maybe it would be better to use no flow enhancers and just an open 3/4 nozzle ? this way its not alot of pressure coming out of each ? i get what your saying about enlarging them to have more flow with less pressure , but that was one of my thinkings on the 3/4 i could have more pressure even if it was alittle less flow .


those penductors look nice deffenitly going to keep that as an option .

as for the sump , i read way to many threads about flow and stuff over the past day , im going to rely mainly on my filter socks , im plaining on 4 7" socks 100mic , i know some dont like socks and stuff but i like them and i had good luck with them , but i also change them out every couple days regardless . i think id rather have alittle higher flow rate and just let the skimmer get what it gets , maybe ill have a 2nd chamber in my sump where water for the skimmer is slower so it can process better . i ran my 70 g tank with a high flow sump rate and had very good luck with it over the past 3 yrs , but thats alittle different than a 550

as for the heating , this tank will be completly enclosed in its own room only alittle bigger than the tank , so any heat coming off the motors will help keep the outside of the tank warm , but im hoping it helps keep it all warm .the dart i have on my temporary tank isnt to noisey as is the blue line pump on the skimmer , one good thing is none of this will be in the living area and the wall is insulated so we shouldnt hear anything .


thanks for the long reply , im trying to take as much advice as i can and wrap it up into my own setup to suit my likings , so im hoping i dont rub to many wrong by doing things different that they should be .

 

[Osteoclast]

I use my closed loop to provide flow from the bottom of the tank and to add a chiller which is fairly noisy to my system when I initially plumbed it in the fish room (extraordinarily insulated btw) Closed loops for flow purposes may be ultimately phased out given the superb power heads and internal flow pumps available. Thus my loop goes to my basement and back via a chiller with a backup chiller loop to the tank. Initially I had hoped for significant SPS type flow via the loop but in the end the pumps and plumbing were too loud to truly accommodate my needs. I use a reef flo hammerhead pump and I minimized the angles and distances in the plumbing. In essence, the bottom line was that a couple of MP 40s can do more for you than several loud pumps with regards to flow with much decreased noise and vibration. Nevertheless, the other advantage of a loop is the ability to add more to the system "off site" and I have good flexibility in this regard. So I do not rely on the loop for major flow but more for additional build outs and to quiet the system. Good luck with your system-so much to consider and few "road maps". Empiricallly derived as my father would say.

 

[camaroboy8691]

well over the past day i have been looking at other ways to do flow , like suggested the mp40 and 60's but i still dont know about them . im a fan of old school technology and closed loops fit that bill , i had some bad luck over the past couple years with power heads not the vortech brand , but another but well spoke of , so i always go back to what i know less circuit borads the better for me .


for my closed loops on the bottom i was going to put a ball valve right at each bulk head fitting , this way if i need slow some flow down in one direction i can just throttle it back instead of backing down the whole system .

 

[CyclistMT]

Can you take some more pictures of the holes for your closed loop so we can get a better perspective of what you've done so far? Maybe we can provide some additional recommendations to maximize the effectiveness.

I do tend to agree with Osteoclast but you've drilled the holes already so why not use them? You may need additional supplementation from "stream" type pumps but you can allways add those at any time.

I don't know if I would put a valve on each (or any) of your closed loop outputs. I understand your logic but the valve will further reduce flow which may lead to you to need an even larger pump.

One thing I forgot to mention in my last post was the need for "wavebox" type flow. Even with all the flow in my tank (and no animals to slow it down yet) I'm still getting areas in the tank where detritus can settle. So I'm contemplating puting some wave type flow in the tank. I don't know that I'll use a Wavebox but I'll probably end up with a couple of controlable Tunze's so I can create a resonance wave. Vortech's won't work for me but they have a nutrient transport mode as well. The idea is to use the wave flow to suspend the detritus so the other flow can better export it to the sump and thus the filter socks. I may not even run it all day long, just portions of the day to keep the detritus out of the tank. Might be something else for you to consider.





Current tunes: Stonesour - Say You'll Haunt Me

 

[camaroboy8691]

since i cant get a good decent picture of the tank and drilled holes i made a half decent attempt in paint , dont luagh . but i also put in some arrows on how i was thinking it could flow , the returns in the middle i was planing on covering with shelve type rock to make a really nice place to put corals right in the middle , then along the back and return side do a rock wall

on the ball valves right at the bulkhead , a bigger pump would be ok , but i have been thinking instead of having 2 big pumps , i might go with 3 smaller pumps just so i can turn 1 off here and there , im totally not sure yet but i am trying to figure it out fast , id like to start plumbing next weekend , like to order all the pumps and stuff in the next few days also .

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/91708975@N06/8353550723/" title="closedlooptank by 225digger, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8233/8353550723_bc8f134137.jpg" width="500" height="263" alt="closedlooptank"></a>

 

[camaroboy8691]

also the wave box , i have been thinking about that also , but one thing that i still think about is a surge setup , the tank i bought off a member on here {the 4x8 same as im building} had 2 surges setup on the tank i think they where 40gal tanks , im really contemplating a simple surge setup maybe just 1 30 gallon tank just to push water in there . im not sure but its something im thinking about i have some room above the tank where i could easily mount a water tank.......still stuck on that idea , but i know along with my closed loops i really should have something else to help it out .

 

[CyclistMT]

That helps immensly! It's probably way better than I'm going to be able to do in Paint.

Couple of questions before I give a full response.

Are you going bare bottom or will you have a substrate?

Sump return will be on the rock wall in the back or on the overflow side?

 

[camaroboy8691]

That helps immensly! It's probably way better than I'm going to be able to do in Paint.

Couple of questions before I give a full response.

Are you going bare bottom or will you have a substrate? ideally 2" of sand at the most , i like the loock of a bare bottom tank , but i do like alittle sand , dsb are not my thing

Sump return will be on the rock wall in the back or on the overflow side?i have not made that desicion yet , im thinking of doing the returns coming in from the top , honestly didnt give it much thought so im open to some suggestions , i might even consider drilling the back of the tank and putting bulk heads in the back wall if i need to

suggestions ?

 

[CyclistMT]

Closed Loop
If you're doing walls of rock, then I don't think you'll get much in tank flow from the outlets along the side and back. You're best get would be to point them mostly up (could use 45's to angle flow) so that the output is creating good flow behind the rock to avoid detritus accumulation. Then use the center outputs to create a gyre type of flow. Although it's laminar flow, the rockwork in the tank will help create randomness. Here are a couple of links that got me started thinking in this direction. Now that I've implemented more laminar type flow, I see the benefits and I still have plenty of randomness. I posted a video in my build log that shows this in action towards the end.

Reef Tank Fluid Mechanics

Article about gyre flow

Here's how I'm picturing what I said above.

You could use one or two pumps but if you go with two pumps, I think you will need to have another supply. I'm not certain but I would be worried about the pumps working against each other trying to pull water from a common supply.


If you would be willing to consider more open rock work, I think you can achieve much better flow. In this case I would go with two pumps and probably alternate them every six hours. I am of the belief that while appropriate laminar flow is OK, it should change direction to suit the animals needs.

Either way you go you will probably need to angle up the outputs slightly to avoid disturbing your substrate. I'm using curshed coral and even its moving around on me with the flow that I have.


Return From Sump
I would definitely go over the top so you can drill siphon break holes just below the water line. If you go through the back you will be forced to use check valves and it's not a matter of IF they will fail but WHEN. Depending on what you do with your closed loop flow, that may help you decide where to put your return. You'll want to use it to enhance the flow, not impede it.


Surge
If you go with a surge tank I would recommed at least 10% of the tank volume to get a decent surge. That means 55 gals of water to surge. So you could get a 65 gal tank for that to have a little head room. Keep in mind that you need someplace for all that water to go if your power goes out. You need to build enough extra sump to hold 100% drain of the surge tank and all piping to avoid a flood on the floor. Honestly though, I don't know if your overflow will handle a surge. You could adjust the surge flow so that it can - longer but slower velocity surge - maybe. My tank is surging @25 gals in 30 seconds. Water level in my tank rises by 3/4" when the surge fires, overflow is completely filled, and 2- 2" pipes are handling the flow with the water level just barely below my 3rd 2" emergency drain. Also, forget about a quiet overflow with a decent surge. I tried using a Beananimal design but couldn't get it to be quiet AND flow consistently. Too much of an extreme between normal flow and surge flow.


Wavebox
If I believed (I don't) the marketing for the Sicce Voyager 4000 stream type pumps I have, then with my retrun flow I'm running about 5000 GPH through my tank not including my surge. So for the sake of argument lets assume it's somewhat less than that and conservatively say it's 3000 GPH. When my surge fires I estimate it's doubling that. I still want "Wavebox" type flow in my tank to help suspend detritus. My point being, even if you do add a surge, don't expect it to take care of all your flow needs. I think you'll still be wanting addtional stream type powerheads in the tank (Vortech, Tunze, Korallia, Sicce - take your pick).


Well, I don't know if that will help you get started on your plumbing or if it just gave you more to chew on. But I know you know this, take your time and do it right now so you don't have to redo it later.


Till next time - :beer: