500G (84X48X30)- NOW REAL !

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8464304#post8464304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by serenity
Sanjay can you answer this for me. I am thinking of going with the same size as you

Right now all I am using for external filteration is my old 5ft tall ETS converted to beckett skimmer.

A friend and I are in the process of making a needle wheel skimmer.. but he just had twins and things may be on a hold for a bit.

So for now I think my skimmer will suffice. The only other thing I am using is carbon and phosphate remover. I use them combined in a reverse flow reactor.

sanjay.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8463193#post8463193 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by B.PETERSEN
Wow Sanjay awesome setup. I really like how you did the rock pillors. I do have one question for you. I see you are only running 10K MH and I didn't see in the thread which brand bulbs you are using. Once again very nice setup.

Bryan

One of the things I often do with my tanks is to use them for experiments in lighting. I want to do some long term tests on bulb ballast combos. I have done this with 4 EVC lamps on magnetic ballasts... and 3 XM bulbs on magnetic ballasts (currently on going on the penn state tank).

On my tank I want to test the long term effect of electronic ballasts on lamps. So I am using the ICECAP 400W electronic ballast. I bounced this idea around to a few lamp manufacturers, and Giesmann was the first to respond. I just got 3 Giesmann Coral 400W lamps sent to me.. thanks to Phil.. so I will be using these on my tank and collecting data over the life of these lamps.


I know form past experience the EVC, USHIO, XM 10Ks have done well for me over the Penn State tank. Those are the only ones in the 400W 10000K I have used in the past with good success.

sanjay.
 
Looking at the dimensions of yout tank and some of your data on PAR values of the lights I have a different idea that may or may not work.


The idea is in a large tank like this most people would be using more than 3 lights probably using 4. Well 4-400Watt units would be 1600 Watts. While 6 250 watt bulbs would be only 1,500 Watts. With a comparisons between the 250 Watt bulbs and 400W bulbs the PAR values per watt are considerably higher than 400 Watt bulbs. So on an energy conservation angel wouldn't more smaller units be more effecient than fewer larger bulbs?

The other advantage is if you have more bulbs it would be easier to mix and match them to give different spectrums of lighing in different areas for for comparisons.

Now for a change in direction may I ask you what youl would recommend for my upcomming new set up. It will be a basic 120 gallon tank 48" X 24" X24" and a deep sand base so my penetration only needs to be about 20". For corals My preferences are Zoos, Softies, and LPS coral. For SPS I may try one or two of the encrusting varieties.

Dennis
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8371409#post8371409 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChunksInClemson
This thread is ridiculously overwhelming. Freakin awesome Sanjay! Just curious on the money side...if you dont mind...how much would it take to set up a tank like this (equipment, tank, livestock, and everything else)? Just a ballpark figure would be nice. Thanks, and what an awesome tank!

I for one did not keep track of what I spend either, however when we had a fire at our house I had to go through everything and make out an itimization with retail values. Believe me I was shocked at the final; number I finished up with and there loads of estimates like how do you put a value on a 15" coral?

Anyway the values that we came up with with roughly $7,000 invested in a 75 gallon tank, $3,000 in a 45 gallon, and another $2,000 in a a 45 gallon reef. Then we had all my fresh water tanks so the toatal they came up with a little over $30,000 total.

Now when the pay was finally calculated from the insurance they only would give me a max of $500 for all my live stock, which was about 1/3 of the total initial value. For the rest we went well well over the total limits of my insurance so I only ended ou with a 2/3 value there. Final for tanks was about $12,000.

Sanjay's set up will be considerably more than what I had and probably ever will. From what I have seen for custom tank proces alone the cost of his bare tank would retail someplace between $3,000 and $7.000 alone depending on the source and how many upgrades he added on to it from a basic tank. I do not think the average person could build up a set up like this for under $10,000 not incuding livestock. Fortuantly I hope Sanjay gets a few perks and deals from manufacturers to keep the cost withn reason for him.

Dennis
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8469504#post8469504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TropTrea
Looking at the dimensions of yout tank and some of your data on PAR values of the lights I have a different idea that may or may not work.


The idea is in a large tank like this most people would be using more than 3 lights probably using 4. Well 4-400Watt units would be 1600 Watts. While 6 250 watt bulbs would be only 1,500 Watts. With a comparisons between the 250 Watt bulbs and 400W bulbs the PAR values per watt are considerably higher than 400 Watt bulbs. So on an energy conservation angel wouldn't more smaller units be more effecient than fewer larger bulbs?

The other advantage is if you have more bulbs it would be easier to mix and match them to give different spectrums of lighing in different areas for for comparisons.

Now for a change in direction may I ask you what youl would recommend for my upcomming new set up. It will be a basic 120 gallon tank 48" X 24" X24" and a deep sand base so my penetration only needs to be about 20". For corals My preferences are Zoos, Softies, and LPS coral. For SPS I may try one or two of the encrusting varieties.

Dennis

Well, there are few things about the lighting. yes, the 6 250s on paper would use less watts, but to get the light output of some of the 400s you would be driving them with the M80 ("HQI") ballast and there you would be using up much more than 250W/lamp.. more like 320-350 range. Secondly, the cost of replacing 6 lamps is more than replacing 3, and also the initial setup cost is lower with 3 lamps than with 6, you would have to buy 6 ballasts, 6 reflectors instead of 3. So in this case the 6 250s would not be a good choice.

For a 120G tank, I would probably go with the smaller footprint lumenarc, or lumenmax reflectors with either the 250W mogul or DE lamps.

sanjay.
 
As for the cost of the tank, yes I do save some money getting things at wholesale from some of the vendors. But even at that the costs are still quite high.. unfortunately I do not get stuff for free other than the stuff I test for lighting. :( I should have tried to get a sponsored tank like the NASCAR race cars, and have offered to put thier stickers all over the tank and over myself when I give talks. :eek2:

its not just the cost of the tank, it the additional costs of remoding the basement, the concessions made to the wife :D that are also significant cost elements of having a reeftank.

sanjay.
 
Don't forget that this is a 30" deep SPS tank. Some people might be able to maintain SPS with the 250's or T5's in this deep of tank, but to get good growth you need the 400's.
 
Your talking about Sanjay's Tank right?... oh, yeah, I dont doubt for one second that 400s are the best choice. Lumenarcs, HQI ballasts and HQI rated bulbs would be my pick too most likely. That or 28 54wattT5 bulbs (front to back). I know it sounds like a lot of bulbs to deal with, but its about $560 in bulbs to replace every couple years, if that (assumes an average cost per bulb of $20, but some bulbs would be less... like GE 6500K and 3000Ks that would be used for daylight, not to mention, a bulk order like that might also warrant a huge discount, if not just a wholesale purchase). But thats 1512 watts of T5s.... that would burn Sanjay's tank up. But considering how even the distribution of light would be across the top of the tank, and how much more the halides would be considered 'point-sources' in this tank (18"x18" lumenarcs are not that big compared to a 7'x4' tank, considering the 30" depth too)... I think that the T5s would grow and color the tank better. The only drawback is that it would require about $2800 in T5 reflectors, endcaps, and ballasts. So not worth it...
 
Hey guys, I was directed your way to discuss the Thorite. I have used it in my aquascaping and have helped three other local buddies’’ re-aquascape their tanks with this cement to create a stable reef structure.

Sanjay, what is everyone congratulating you for? I confess that I am just getting here and did not read all of the 30 pages in this thread.

I wanted to share some information about my use of Thorite. Here is what I recall. There are several varieties of Thorite available. I used the Thorite Rapid Vertical. It is specifically made for reinforcing vertical surfaces like those found in tunnels and walls of water ways. This cement has been used exclusively at the Waikiki aquarium in Hawaii. I got the idea about using this cement form the latest Delbeek and Sprung Book: The Reef Aquarium Volume III. BTW, this book is a total MUST HAVE for anyone that is building a new tank. It explores many innovative ideas for building a reef tank. The Thorite cement is discussed on page 562. This type of Thorite does not contain any antifungal and is reef safe. My system has been running for 6 months now and I do not have any issues with it. My water parameters are in check too.


Finding the cement is a challenge. Do not waste your time looking at Lowes HD, Ace, or any store like that. This cement is a specialty item and I had to special order it. It also came in a bag, not a bucket like that showed on pg 562 of the book. I purchased the cement from Border Construction in Tucson Az. The cement cost $35.00 for a 50 pound bag and freight cost $48.00. I arranged a group buy a while back and sold some portions. I had many portions remaining and now I think I only have about 15 pounds left or so. I used about 5 pounds to do my project and about 2-4 pounds for each of my friends tanks.

I used the cement in a different fashion than Sanjay. Rather than cement sections of rock outside the tank. I used the cement to solidify my reef structure as I was building it in the tank. First, I placed base rock on the glass. Then, I added the sandbed and seawater to wet the sandbed. Then I began building the aquascaping up in layers. With each layer added, I used zip ties and Thorite where needed to create a solid structure. I would do this by laying a rock in a natural resting position. Then I would use Thorite and wedge it between and around the rocks that met each other. This stuff is awesome to use, but must be used in a dry setting. You can not use it underwater. However, you need to baste it with seawater as it cures. The stuff you mix up in a bowl will begin to set in about ten minutes. If you just add a tbs more water and mix it up, it will become soft again and ready for use. After the aquascaping is complete add sweater to the tank and let it cycle. The Thorite will finish curing underwater and be solid in about 24 hours.

Some people asked about the color. It remains dark gray but does not look too bad. It also works great to smear on zip ties to dull the color of the tie, whether black or clear ties were used. For a few pieces of cement that were in obvious view, I would pour a spoon full of coarse reef sand onto the wet Thorite and press it in with the back of the spoon. This would break up the gray color and looked natural. In about three months, coralline algae took over and the Thorite is now very difficult to point out when I have guests over to check out the reef.

As testament to how valuable this stuff is, I helped Adam redo the aquascaping in his 110tall. The challenge to overcome here was to build a structure that his two large engineer gobies could not level. All his other attempts to aquascape would be destroyed in several days after these master diggers started playing. His system is now 4 months old and not a single rock has shifted. Furthermore, the gobies love it. They create new tunnels daily and then burry the tunnels up at night and start digging all over again the next day. All this is done without the rocks falling down and crushing the gobies.

For more information on my use of this cement and detailed photos of the aquascaping process in my 110 tall, please visit this page.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=779601&perpage=25&pagenumber=4

This is Adam’s tank with the engineer gobies. This is his update. In that thread, click on the link to visit his build page.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=965431
 
stacking MH outputs?

stacking MH outputs?

Hi, sorry for the sidetrack, but why do MH lamp outputs stack? 4x400w may be 1600w in total but since their footprints rarely overlap isnt the total wattage over any section of the tank significantly less? Can a similar argument be extended over to T5HO lighting and say that 28x54w=1512w is 1512w over any section of the tank? maybe there is a flaw in my logic...
 
You are not flawed. photons are photons, and the more evenly distributed these photons are, and the more they are all focused in the same direction, the better they will penetrate. OTOH, the 400s will have peaks that are much higher as you get close to the bulb. T5s tend to peak out at about 1000 PAR as you get within 3" of the bulb/reflector. Im sure a 400wattSE in a lumenarc has a much higher peak. According to Sanjay's tests of the lumenarc3, he will have peaks of about 2500 at about 6" away from the reflector...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/feature.htm

Which makes sense, since 400watts of light in a much smaller area will mean more intensity as you get closer to the bulb. The T5s mave all that wattage spread out over all those bulbs, each being about 8-10x the surface area of the inner halide.

The halide is more of a point source, and the T5 is more linear. Im not going to say that the halides are a 'point source' 100%, but more of one than the T5s would be. Some say that linear lights over a square aquarium result the same light intensity from top to bottom. According to theory, this is true. The light that is going downward from the bulbs, evenly across the tank, would reflect off the glass, etc.... from top to bottom. It is in theory very possible, but only with a morrored glass box and no rockwork inside. Water itself absorbs light as well. The halides are not exactly a point source, but they are only 18"x18" squares of light. And although the reflector helps gather and focus that light, it doesnt aim it all downward like an LED, alot of light escapes at radiating angles w/o ever making it to the water. The reflectors are also working with light that is reflected, as in, the light has to travel from the bulb to the reflector in the first place. So while wider reflectors help offset the inverse square law for halides, they arent 100%.

Both are somewhere in between. T5s prolly penetrate better, and are spread out better, but their output hardly penetrates without weakening with depth. The halide bulbs themselves might be point sources, but the reflectors helps offset that some. Still, the reflectors are only what... less then 1/4 the surface area of the whole tank? They may not be point sources, but they will be more so than the T5s by a large margin.

What this means to us... Shadows are the best way to tell how much a light is a point source. You like 'shimmer' lines? Well, they are a result of using a point source for lighting. The more you distribute the light over the top of the tank, the less shimmer you will get. The more shimmer you have, the more like a point source your lighting really is, and the less the ligth penetrates. If you hold your hand, or some other object in the tank at various levels, you can determine what the distribution/penetration is by how large/small the shadow is underneath that hand. Examples? My 40B with a lumenarc DE has NO shimmer lines despite it being a halide... the reflector covers too much area for shadows to be cast. If I mounted the halide taller, or used my old PFO mini-pendant, the shimmer would increase, and so would the shadows... so it would be more of a point source. On my T5 tank, I have to hold my hand about 6" from the bottom or less to even get a shadow from it... the T5s are able to send light from so many angles.

Sanjay's halides will give him greater peaks near the bulbs. This may be necessary for some corals. I have some Millipora varieties that dont seem to color-in unless they get about 2000 PPFD on their tips. I wouldnt be able to keep it colored in under T5s most likely (yet oddly enough, within 6" of the T5s, this coral's frags are coloring in even more intense than 6" right under a 250wattDE halide). Since using the lumenarcDE, this milli has lost some color. The lumenarc makes more light across the whole tank, but it isnt able to concentrate the output of the bulb as well as a smaller reflector close to the bulb, like the PFO mini-pendant I had on the tank before. But for most corals, they dont need that much. The T5s would allow more light across the rest of the tank, and allow for more medium-high light corals to be placed anywhere in the tank. With 400watt halide pendants, that 2500 PAR is higher than most anything really wants or needs (except for that pink milli of mine), and even at that, Sanjay would only have that much light in very small patches located right under the bulbs. Putting corals here would block out light to other places in the tank. FWIW, I remeber someone saying that getting close to some 250watt halides produced outputs that were higher than found at the ocean surface... so 400s are beyond that. T5s would penetrate better, and although not peaking as high as the 400s close to the bulb, these levels arent really useful for anything anyways. The light from the T5s at the bottom of the tank would be more even, and brighter than the halides (provided quality reflectors and active venting are used for the T5s).

Not trying to turn this into a T5 vs halide argument, so I'll rephrase it this way... Lets say that Sanjay were to use 1600watts in 175watt halides. Thats about 10 halides, in lumenarc3 reflectors. Same wattage, but now the light would be spread out over 80% of the tank's surface. Now, while getting close to one of these bulbs would not yeild the same peaks that getting close to a 400 would, those peaks might not be needed, and the light coming from all those different angles and areas would mean more light makes it to the bottom of the tank and around every rock in the tank with the 10 smaller halides rather than the 3 larger ones. Only 3 bulbs over a 28 square foot tank means alot of shadows. But that also means more 'shimmer', and more shadows, etc. The 'look' in the end it what matters.

And nobody wants to replace ten 175watt Bulbs every year though rather than three 400s. Thats something like $700 in bulbs every year. Three 400s cost at most $450 if you get the high-pressure ones, but more like $300 for most. 28 x T5s would cost about $280 per year to replace... since most T5s except actinincs will last for 2 years, but this is offset by by the average cost of many daylight bulbs being much less than the $20 per bulb average).
 
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Sanjay

you mentioned that you purchased a Airiva HE-100 heat recovery ventilator. How do you or anyone else that has one like/dislike it. At a little over $400 shipped it seems like a heck of a deal. The only weaknesses that I have found so far are the lack of bells and whistles in the controls areas, a bit less efficient at recovering heat (80% where others claim 90% ish), and the fans look kinda cheap. I would like to get one to help with first floor humidity, but at well over $1000 for most.... I'll leave a window open! :7)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8523746#post8523746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by yaitisme
Sanjay

you mentioned that you purchased a Airiva HE-100 heat recovery ventilator. How do you or anyone else that has one like/dislike it. At a little over $400 shipped it seems like a heck of a deal. The only weaknesses that I have found so far are the lack of bells and whistles in the controls areas, a bit less efficient at recovering heat (80% where others claim 90% ish), and the fans look kinda cheap. I would like to get one to help with first floor humidity, but at well over $1000 for most.... I'll leave a window open! :7)

Kind of my thinking too. It was cheap enough to try. I have it hooked up to the whole house system, so its drawing from the whole house return duct and returning into it. I cut 2 holes in the duct for the basement air to get pulled in.


Kind of hard to tell how well its working. The basement does not smell or feel as humid as it used to. So that is a plus. When it gets cold in the 30s outside I am stll getting some sweating on teh basement windows. So the system may still require some tweaking.

sanjay.
 
Over the last week I have started adding some corals and fish to the system. My goal with fish is to get multiples of several fish going so I can have pairs or trios of fish and hopefully get to see some interesting mating behaviours.

I added the following fish so far:
1 - purple tang
1 - Tomini tang
1 - hippo tang
This is primarily to get some algae control fish in before algae takes a strong hold.

3 - Anthias Bimaculatus females
3 - Venustus Angels
2 - Tank raised Bangaii (curetesy of a local friend - insanefishguy)

Here are some fish pics.

Bimaculatus
fish-bimac.gif


Venustus Angels- I got 3 of these in an attempt to see if I can get a trio going. They have been in the tank only for 3 days so far, but seem to be mellow fish not particularly aggressive towards each other. I have not seen them eating food that I put in, but they are always busy picking off the rocks. They keep going to my little 1.5" hippo and acting like they want to be cleaned. They must think the hippo is a cleaner fish.

fish-venustus.gif


fish-venustus-2.gif


fish-venustus-3.gif


Tomini Tang - just wanted a different kind of bristle tooth tang.

fish-tomini.gif
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8529975#post8529975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sanjay
When it gets cold in the 30s outside I am stll getting some sweating on teh basement windows.
sanjay.

Sanjay, Please check for a possible negative draft or spilling of flue products from your water heater or furnance/boiler. I don't mean to alarm you, but moisture on the inside of windows is a common symtom when flue products are not exiting out through the chimney. (could also produce carbon monoxide).

BTW very nice fish - Ed
 
Sanjay,

It's hard to get a size perspective from the pictures. What is the size of the blocks you used for the bases of your pillars?

Looking good. My 340 is about 1/2 full at the moment. I have to redo the thread as I moved some pics and they're not showing up.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8530593#post8530593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrcrab
Sanjay,

It's hard to get a size perspective from the pictures. What is the size of the blocks you used for the bases of your pillars?

Looking good. My 340 is about 1/2 full at the moment. I have to redo the thread as I moved some pics and they're not showing up.

Those pavers are 6"X9" if I recall correctly.

sanjay.
 
Cool...those were the same ones I was looking at, just wasn't sure if it would be stable enough.

Thanks
 
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