6305 shrouds on 6105?

Rosscopeco

New member
Hi Roger,
Is it possible to fit the 6305 shrouds on the 6105 pumps?
I know it works with the 6205 shrouds but the 6305 shroud seems to have less intake restrictions.
It's worth noting for anyone else reading this, that I'm trying to get a wider flow pattern from my 6105s.
It's also worth noting that after the recent "study" on flow rates I took the opportunity to refurbish my mp40 to do some tests of my own.
They have their merits and I got a decent price for the unit when I sold it the next day.:debi:

Anyway, is this a feasable upgrade for my purposes or, should I be waiting for the retro fits that were mentioned in the earlier press release?

I'm not after free stuff, just your invaluable opinion.
:thumbsup:Ross.
 
First, the flow study was wrong, we now know that. They essentially tested flow at point blank range, since the Vortech's generate a very high turbulence and the ADV is very susceptible to turbulence errors it gave them a much higher flow number over the transitional flow our pumps produce with direction. For a 6105, the flow is easily increased by a 24V jumper and the force of the flow then increases so if your tank is less than 6ft long it is best to use a 6205.130 housing to widen it, but more intake area is not needed. Initially, all we knew was we hit the same flow rates they did by removing the front cover and we thought the front cover was the cause, it isn't, it is just the high turbulence of the undirected flow tricks the meter and the flow has very little reach, at point blank you have more flow, even a foot away the results flip.
 
Interesting. Are you planning a formal press-release with this info or did I miss it?
The reason I asked is that many owners, as OP, are still waiting for retrofits (or other means) to improve the flow.
 
We released a video and attached article explaining what we found, there is no meaningful way to increase flow, you can only choose the type of flow, flow with direction, or turbulence with only velocity, since the original study calculated flow using a velocity meter, the high velocity of turbulence at point blank range skewed the result. Downfield where it counts, our flow is much higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLkW1-6HbQk
 
Roger, Yes, I saw that video and article. It caused heated discussion in "Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment" forum. And it's still going. If you check it you'll see what I mean about owners expectation.
Would be nice if you could provide some simple direction at the end of your article. Like you started here: for 6105 use 24V jumper and 6205 housing OR whatever has to be done to get advertised flow rate on the equipment that was used for testing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on you or anything like that. I use your streams only and love them. I'm sure there are many other owners that still waiting for actions from you.
 
GPH is only an accurate way to state flow when you are physically transporting fluid from one vessel to another and can quantify it in that way. We use gph because we started with the only honest statement that can be made, velocity, the Interzoo 2002 flyer stated the flow in velocity, every single dealer complained that they didn't know what this meant. They wanted the flow stated in gph/lph as people were used to that number from conventional powerheads which as a pressure pump can be metered in this way accurately. In the sense that we are conveying how many maxijets the flow is equal to, it is an accurate statement, but it is largely meaningless in any other sense. You cannot really increase the flow, only change the pattern, reach, width, ratio of turbulence to transistional flow, etc and for the 6105 a small gain is possible because we can go from 18-24V. If tricking a meter is all that people are interested in, that we can do, but the result is not meaningful flow. This is why no one ever states a river has x number of gph of flow, they state the velocity, the same on a reef. Further, your corals only care about the velocity of flow, which should be between .10-.25 m/s for lagoon dwellers and around .30-.50 m/s for your average lps and many sps and up to 2.00 m/s for the highest flow corals from trenches and surf zones.

We are working on restating the flow with velocity in future reprints of the manuals and packaging, which is the way it should be stated, we will keep the gph statement with the disclaimer "for comparative purposes only" and add a chart that shows the velocity of the flow in a map of flow pattern and explains what coral types need what velocity.

We have more flow in any meaningful and honest way than any of our competitors, the pattern is more useful and we deliver the velocity needed across the tank, rather than in a small area near the pump.

The initial press release assumed we had some gross error, some obstruction or reduction of flow, we only knew using a similar method, we got a similar result, and that if we removed the front housing entirely, we got the same result as they have, but upon further testing we saw this wasn't an improvement, it wasn't an increase, the flow downstream becomes nothing and we now fully understand the physics at play. You could view our flow as time released, the same energy is present, but it unwinds into velocity of turbulence downstream as the directional energy changes form upon interaction with the static water, this is why the dye is transported completely across the tank, versus swirling in a short reach area.

I am aware of the thread, but the posters are largely two fan clubs butting heads, as much as I appreciate our supporters there is very little meaningful or productive conversation and I have stayed out of it as their will be more flow studies, and we know we are right and we had it right all along and so rather than fan flames and be accused of cheating, lying etc, I have stayed out of it. We made our case, further flow studies will certainly vindicate us if they look at the reach and practical use in common reef sizes and the velocity at the corals. I know we were not lying and I don't believe anyone else was, but somehow, you have to convey the flow to consumers in a way they understand and that is gph, which is not a valid unit of measure for open channel flow, you can state it, but it is highly inaccurate since it is all based on where and how you collect your velocity numbers and whether you include the water that is induced into movement downstream, which is a valid point of open channel type flow. We haven't changed our intention to improve the products, which is a continual process and we always are tweaking and refining the pumps, but what really constitutes an improvement? It should be more than simply finding a test you can win.
 
I might be wrong, but for me number of gallons of water coming out of the nozzle of the stream (or any powerhead for that metter) in 1 hour is gph. Velocity, flow pattern, reach, width, ratio of turbulence to transitional flow etc. are very important and should be also stated/printed below or above gph number.
Thank you for your responses. I hope to see more tests/studies results from you.
 
velocity can also be very misleading as far as manufacturers specs go. Velocity is the speed that the water is moving at a given point. If the pump had a 1/4" outlet the volecity would be much higher than for a pump with a 3" outlet both flowing the same number of gallons per hour.

However when you looking at the flow within a tank what is inportant at a given piont where the coral is located is the velocity. The further the coral is loated from the pump itself and the geometrics of the tank will determine what the velocity is at any given point. It is no impossible to have a pump running that would give you 3.0m/s at one point in the tank and only .05m/s at another point.

This is one thing that has puzzled me for years. I have seen very little on the flpow characterictics without a tank. The rock work can create interesting effects on these flow paterns yet few seem concerned about it. The old eule of thumb was always for SPS to have at least 25 the volumn of your tank for the total flow. But this can realy be inadequate or over kill dependent upon the flow characteristics within your actual tank.
 
You are correct about gph, the problem is with a pump with very low/no head pressure, the usual methods of measurement aren't applicable and it always boils down to a calculation or a theoretical and the result depends on the source data for velocity. It is further complicated when you realize how much of the flow some pump designs simply suck back in and recirculate, many of these pumps are just rechurning the same output. If you don't direct it downstream, what comes out, gets sucked right back in. This is why this has little value.

TropTrea is also correct about velocity, that is why we would present it as a map, showing the flow at various distances, it would show the coverage and flow within this area as grey shades denoting the velocity in an area, but obstructions do have an impact, at an obstruction, directional energy converts to velocity and velocity increases and reach is lost.
 
I see what you saying. Looks like a new system of pump qualification is needed (IMHO). It might lead to some confusion among potential customers but if you willing to educate and provide all relevant info it might be OK.
 
I kike to think of it a wind tunnel like they use for testing the areo dynamics of cars. Any obsticle in the flow will change the flow. Even the far wall of the tank has a drastic effect on flow. So you need to consider your rock formations as well as the shape of your tank. Where do you want the maximium flow? Where do you want the minimium flow?

Now when you have two pumps at opposite ends of a tank, when you get to the center of the tank, they can easily be working against each other reducng actual flow. This is why it is important to have a controler that will cut one off while the other is running.
 
Roger,
Earlier when the initial study (the comparative study) was published, you mention Tunze is working on a "fix" for 6105. Now with the new findings, I suppose there will be no "fix"?
 
For 6105, around Nov or Dec, there will be an upgrade kit of a 24V jumper and a 6205.130 housing. The jumper is all that is needed to boost the flow 800 gph by the same measurement methodology in the original study, however, the velocity becomes quite high at the output and should be widened by the 6205.130 housing in most cases (except SPS tanks that are long and narrow) and the pump also gets louder it goes from about 62db to about 64db, but still quieter than the competition. At the same time the 6105 will start to include these parts and the price will go up about $30 and that will be also the price of the kit. You will be able to choose out of the box 12V, 18V, 24V, narrow long flow or wide short flow. Similar solutions will likely follow for the other pumps, however, it is not as much of an increase as a change of flow type (wider and more spread), the competition doesn't really have more flow, they just have a high velocity at the point the flow was measured and a wider pattern. It goes back to the physics, energy is neither created nor destroyed, if you put in 30W, you get out 30W, you can't make more flow from nothing. The only real gains can come from more power or more efficiency and less energy going to noise, heat and vibration, but within the limits of modern mechanics there are not huge gains to be made in this area. The 6105 is now 24W and the jumper boosts it to 30W so you nudge it up a bit, but it is not a free lunch.
 
Roger, I'm happy with my 6105 and actually need to reduce flow. I have one at the moment and want to buy the 6205 shroud for it, if I buy it before November will we still get the lower price ?
 
First, the flow study was wrong, we now know that. They essentially tested flow at point blank range, since the Vortech's generate a very high turbulence and the ADV is very susceptible to turbulence errors it gave them a much higher flow number over the transitional flow our pumps produce with direction. For a 6105, the flow is easily increased by a 24V jumper and the force of the flow then increases so if your tank is less than 6ft long it is best to use a 6205.130 housing to widen it, but more intake area is not needed. Initially, all we knew was we hit the same flow rates they did by removing the front cover and we thought the front cover was the cause, it isn't, it is just the high turbulence of the undirected flow tricks the meter and the flow has very little reach, at point blank you have more flow, even a foot away the results flip.

Hi Roger,
I knew the flow study was flawed from my own observations with both types of pumps.
The bubble test is even better when you use an airstone.
Thankyou for the clarification on the subject.

The last thing I want to achieve in my tank is a higher flow velocity so the 24v jumper is out of the question for me.
Most people I know don't run their pumps at 100% anyway. The only time mine run at 100% is during the daily storm mode.

The reason I was asking about the 6305 shrouds is that I find nothing grows coraline faster than Tunze black plastic. I was hoping that the more open design of the 6305 shroud would require less frequent cleaning of the shroud.
Will the 6305 shroud fit on the 6105?

The idea of a flow diagram sounds great. It makes more sense than most of the theoritical specs on products.

On a side note, how did you go about running the pumps with no cover at all?
 
I have an older 6101 pump. Do yu have any idea what the flow would be between the different 12 volt, 18 vold, and 24 volt jumpers? In the past I had only had the 24V but with the replacement Power supply I have all three jumpers furnished.

The idea of a wider shroud also sound good Considering I have only a 48" long tank. Is there a shroud with a wider distribution I can use on my pump.

Then I also have a thrid question and that is if I can addapt my older pump to a newer magnet mount. This would give me a lot more options as to pump placement.

Thanks
 
I have an older 6101 pump. Do yu have any idea what the flow would be between the different 12 volt, 18 vold, and 24 volt jumpers? In the past I had only had the 24V but with the replacement Power supply I have all three jumpers furnished.

The idea of a wider shroud also sound good Considering I have only a 48" long tank. Is there a shroud with a wider distribution I can use on my pump.

Then I also have a thrid question and that is if I can addapt my older pump to a newer magnet mount. This would give me a lot more options as to pump placement.

Thanks

Hijacked again:uzi:

Not that I mind of course, but I was just asking a simple question of Roger.
:thumbsup:
 
No, it won't. Only the 6205 cover will work on the 6105.

Are you saying this because you have tried or has it been stated by Roger previously?

I also love my Tunze products and the service,but this post has turned into something it was never meant to be. My apologies.
 
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