James77
Team RC
6305 shrouds on 6105?
- Thread starter Rosscopeco
- Start date
Rosscopeco
New member
Thanks for that. Much appreciated.
Vader- First, let me explain the reason it seems like it will take so long to implement something with parts we already have. At present, the pumps are made as a whole, not two halves. I.e, you can't make a 6205.130 without making the plastic mold of a 6205.100. This means mass producing them as is would result in a bunch of unusable motors. Until we change the production of this part up so we can get just the half we need, it is more expensive to produce. With that said, if this is urgent, I would work with you, I have a couple on hand, but it will certainly be cheaper as the full kit.
Rosscopeco, for the Stream 2, all front housings are interchangeable, but as we found after we measured intake area, we don't have a shortage, this is not the constraint and the 6305 housing will work but is not necessary and won't result in much increase, we tried it and you gain about 200lph or 50gph, it is a virtually undetectible increase.
TropTrea, for an older 6100 or 6101, the 6200.130 housing will widen the output, I have these new or used if you are interested.
Rosscopeco, for the Stream 2, all front housings are interchangeable, but as we found after we measured intake area, we don't have a shortage, this is not the constraint and the 6305 housing will work but is not necessary and won't result in much increase, we tried it and you gain about 200lph or 50gph, it is a virtually undetectible increase.
TropTrea, for an older 6100 or 6101, the 6200.130 housing will widen the output, I have these new or used if you are interested.
Rosscopeco
New member
Thanks Roger.
I was not after more flow anyway, just to lazy to keep cleaning off the coraline.
Have a great day.
Ross.
I was not after more flow anyway, just to lazy to keep cleaning off the coraline.
Have a great day.
Ross.
The main point is that there is no 100% accurate way to state flow of these pumps in gph, you can either make a calculation from velocity and diameter (flow study) which will give varying results based on the meter type and its susceptibility to turbulence. You can make a calculation as we did by viewing a propeller as a screw and converting the surface area into a flow number, which is strictly theoretical. Or, you can do the only somewhat accurate test of a bag test, where the pump has a bag placed over the outlet and the flow is collected for 5-10 seconds and this is calculated out into gph, but in this test the resistance of the bag and short tube to connect to the pump reduce flow and the short sample times also introduce error. All we can accurately state is the flow is somewhere between 3200-5800 gph and our best guess from trying a half dozen methods and meters is it is somewhere in the middle. This goes for all the pumps on the market, not just ours, depending on how you measure, the results are all over the map. Because of this we are going to add a flow map of velocity to show the most important number, what the velocity is at various distances, as this is what the corals perceive and need for health and gph is largely a meaningless measurement in the case of a wide flow pump. We will restate the gph as "for comparative purposes only". For the 6205, we will likely offer a wider flow option for those who want a wider more turbulent flow but this is still in development, with this wide, turbulent flow, using the method of the flow study, by calculation the gph goes up, but using what matters to the corals, velocity, drops at everything more than about 1ft from the pump.
Rosscopeco
New member
You should get the MP60. That way when you realise your mistake, you can sell it for next to nothing and buy the Tunze pumps anyway.:uhoh3:
Believe me you won't be the first.
:thumbsup:
dzhuo
Active member
Roger,
Thanks for the update. I have a couple quick follow up questions:
1. Currently, the 6305 cover is not compatible with 6105. What needs to change in order for the 6305 to fit with the 6105 pump?
2. How much wider flow will the 6105 be with the 6305 cover? A general percentage is all I need.
Thanks!
Thanks for the update. I have a couple quick follow up questions:
1. Currently, the 6305 cover is not compatible with 6105. What needs to change in order for the 6305 to fit with the 6105 pump?
2. How much wider flow will the 6105 be with the 6305 cover? A general percentage is all I need.
Thanks!
Rosscopeco
New member
1. The 6105, 6205 and 6305 covers are interchangeable. Roger has explained that above.
2. The 6205 and 6305 shrouds have the same outlet diameter. The 6305 has a more open strainer design which will not make the flow any wider than the 6205 shroud. Read this
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1898188&highlight=6105
dzhuo
Active member
I am always under the impression that 6305 cover wouldn't fit in a 6105 without modifications. I believe Roger's statement means when the kit is available later this year, the 6305 will fit in a 6105. Did I interpret Roger's statement incorrectly? In other word, will the 6305 fit into a 6105 without modification to either the pump or the cover?
OK. Thanks! Since the 6305 will not make the 6105 flow pattern wider, I assume the benefit of using 6305 is to simply increase velocity?
All housings interchange, you can use anyone you want on a 6105 but:
The velocity is highest with the stock housing, 1.00m/s at the pump at 18V and .35 4.5ft away, going to 24V bumps this to 1.40 and .50. The 6205.130 spreads the flow so you have lower velocity over a wider area. You don't get more flow, you just choose wide vs narrow by the housing, so the velocity drops at the pump to a peak of .65 m/s at 24V but it is a much wider area that is impacted, but the reach is shortened so at 4.5ft it is down to .20 m/s at 24V. The reason we will include both housings is that some people have long narrow tanks of mainly high flow SPS and some have wide short tanks and mainly LPS and softies. You can look up articles by the likes of Dana Riddle, Jake Adams, and even the USGS and various universities and see exactly what velocity your corals get in nature. In general, lagoon dwellers, like mushrooms, polyps, elegance corals, like a flow of .10-.30 m/s, most of your anemones, LPS, soft corals, and just your average reef, sees flow velocities in the range of .30-.60 m/s, then on the extreme would be the SPS colonies you see bombarded by waves or the filter feeding corals and some leathers that live in high flow trenches or where the reef meets the open ocean and they live in velocities from up to and occasionally exceding 2.50 m/s. Note, that not one article claims you need any gallons per hour, the corals don't detect this.
This is the main point we have been trying to make since we took to testing this, you cannot make more flow except by a bigger motor and higher wattage, 24V raises the wattage, that is what makes more flow. The 6305.130 housing does nothing for this pump, it just has more intake area, the pump has plenty of intake area for the flow, we tried it, a 6305.130 added no measurable increase in flow over the 6205.130 housing and indeed over the 6105.130 housing, 24V is what increases the flow, by raising the wattage, essentially giving a bigger motor.
The velocity is highest with the stock housing, 1.00m/s at the pump at 18V and .35 4.5ft away, going to 24V bumps this to 1.40 and .50. The 6205.130 spreads the flow so you have lower velocity over a wider area. You don't get more flow, you just choose wide vs narrow by the housing, so the velocity drops at the pump to a peak of .65 m/s at 24V but it is a much wider area that is impacted, but the reach is shortened so at 4.5ft it is down to .20 m/s at 24V. The reason we will include both housings is that some people have long narrow tanks of mainly high flow SPS and some have wide short tanks and mainly LPS and softies. You can look up articles by the likes of Dana Riddle, Jake Adams, and even the USGS and various universities and see exactly what velocity your corals get in nature. In general, lagoon dwellers, like mushrooms, polyps, elegance corals, like a flow of .10-.30 m/s, most of your anemones, LPS, soft corals, and just your average reef, sees flow velocities in the range of .30-.60 m/s, then on the extreme would be the SPS colonies you see bombarded by waves or the filter feeding corals and some leathers that live in high flow trenches or where the reef meets the open ocean and they live in velocities from up to and occasionally exceding 2.50 m/s. Note, that not one article claims you need any gallons per hour, the corals don't detect this.
This is the main point we have been trying to make since we took to testing this, you cannot make more flow except by a bigger motor and higher wattage, 24V raises the wattage, that is what makes more flow. The 6305.130 housing does nothing for this pump, it just has more intake area, the pump has plenty of intake area for the flow, we tried it, a 6305.130 added no measurable increase in flow over the 6205.130 housing and indeed over the 6105.130 housing, 24V is what increases the flow, by raising the wattage, essentially giving a bigger motor.
dzhuo
Active member
I am not debating the test or its result. My current set up consists of 2 6105 with 6205 cover and both use 18v jumper. My other Tunze is 6055. I am trying to see the difference between:
1. Upgrade to 6305 cover with 24v jumper.
2. Upgrade to 24v jumper.
From what you state, it seems like #1 is exactly the same as #2 since the 6305 cover would not produce wider flow compare to 6205.
Is this correct?
Here is what we know from bag testing, which is as close to real gph as you can get, it measures what can actually be collected from the pump in a bag, no computations, no guessing, no theory, turbulence is not measured, only what can actually be collected. We used the following method, a pipe of 10cm length with a diameter matching the pumps output, with what is essentially a heavy duty trash bag on the end, it is deflated of any air and held closed by one hand at the pipe until "go". The pump is running in a tank about 12cm (5") from the surface, one person attaches the pipe at the word "go" from a stop watch reader (2nd person) and the reader counts down 5 seconds and says "stop" at 5 seconds. The bag is weighed in kg after being placed in a rigid tub to avoid tearing and spills, the scale is tared for the weight of the tub and bag empty. 1 liter of water weighs 1 kg, there are 720 5 second intervals in an hour, by multiplying the collected weight of water in kg by 720 you get lph. We do 5 runs rotating the watch reader and the bag tester to minimize reaction time errors (though a person who is slow will generally attach slow and remove slow and same of someone who is fast so this error is largely self correcting) and we take the average of the 5 runs. Keep in mind that the bag and pipe are a source of resistance and in all likelihood, real numbers are higher, but not astronomically, likely no more than 10%. Anyone can do this test themselves. To convert to gallons, simply divide by 3.785.
6105 with 18V jumper-9620 lph (Average of 13.36 kg of water collected in 5 seconds)
MP-40- 11433 lph (Average 15.88 kg of water collected in 5 sec)
6105 with 24V jumper-11950 lph (Average of 17.48 kg of water collected in 5 seconds)
You can also see why this method is so limited, much past 20kg and you will just end up soaked when the bag rips open. So, bigger pumps and longer sample times which would increase accuracy become very difficult
6105 with 18V jumper-9620 lph (Average of 13.36 kg of water collected in 5 seconds)
MP-40- 11433 lph (Average 15.88 kg of water collected in 5 sec)
6105 with 24V jumper-11950 lph (Average of 17.48 kg of water collected in 5 seconds)
You can also see why this method is so limited, much past 20kg and you will just end up soaked when the bag rips open. So, bigger pumps and longer sample times which would increase accuracy become very difficult
dzhuo
Active member
No worry Roger.
I am interested to try out the 24v jumper but let me clarify a few more minor questions:
1. The noise increase is only about 2db going from 18v to 24v?
2. Do I need to turn off the pump to do the jumper upgrade or can I just switch them out when the pump is running?
3. How much is the v24 jumper?
4. Does the upgrade increase power consumption and heat production?
Thanks!
I am interested to try out the 24v jumper but let me clarify a few more minor questions:
1. The noise increase is only about 2db going from 18v to 24v?
2. Do I need to turn off the pump to do the jumper upgrade or can I just switch them out when the pump is running?
3. How much is the v24 jumper?
4. Does the upgrade increase power consumption and heat production?
Thanks!
1) By our tests, it went from 62db to 64db.
2) The power supply must be unplugged before changing the jumper, not doing so you risk being shocked and damaging the power supply and pump.
3) $2.14
4) Of course, the pump goes from 24W to 30W and also produced more heat, but the heat increase is nominal.
2) The power supply must be unplugged before changing the jumper, not doing so you risk being shocked and damaging the power supply and pump.
3) $2.14
4) Of course, the pump goes from 24W to 30W and also produced more heat, but the heat increase is nominal.
No change of warranty, it is an authorized upgrade. Further we know 100% it will work and safely with no loss of life span, the power supply can handle 50W, the motor coil can handle up to 32V and 45W, these are upper limits and will lead to a short life but 24V and 30W is well within the safety margin, there is plenty left over for the pump to jam and not overload. We have already tested this quite a bit. The main issue is we have always designed around quiet and that is why we prefer the 18V and 24W solution. It is only 2db, but db is only part of the story, pitch is also very important and low speeds equal lower pitch and higher pitch noises are more annoying, even if they are the same db. However, compared to the competition even at 64db we are still several orders of magnitude quieter since db is a logarithmic scale.
