a conversation about LFS

[JNye]

I want to get people's take on the importance of a LFS to them/their success. Here is mine.

I don't feel like I need to support the LFS. This is America, and to say the LFS business is tough and competetive seems to be a huge understatement. The only thing a LFS is good for (for me) is livestock. I like the basement stores so far. These were hobbyists/first and they understand the need/requirement for healthy livestock. At all the LFS I have asked for something in particular(4) and gave them my phone number I have had no response. Some of these fish were normal stock items, ie easy to acquire. Apparently they don't worry to much about me.
And almost all stores I frequent have limited stock on dry goods. So the theory that they'll be there in an emergency doesn't make sense to me, also i consider myself quite prepared for most normal emergencies.

The only benefit of a regular B&M LFS is the introduction to the hobby to a newbie. This is how I learned of this wonderful hobby. I walked into Go Fish and was amazed at the idea of having that in my home. I went home and researched for 6 months and actually never bought a thing from those guys for like a year and half after walking through their door, yeah its a tough business.
And the introduction of newbies through a LFS is prolly the least desirable way for someone to get involved into the hobby. Word of mouth with a guiding hand from and experienced hobbyist has to be the best way. I just can't feel bad for a struggling LFS. If that's what is going on with your store then either you shouldn't be doing it because you are not good at it, or there simply isn't the market for it...

What is your take? Do you need them? I'm not trying to be a jerk but this is just the truth about how I feel and am wondering how everyone else feels about it.

 

[pescadero]

You make some good points. I recently had an emergency medical problem crop up in one of my quarantine tanks that required antibiotics, and I had one heck of a time trying to find what I needed. the depth of the dry goods at some of the LFS just isn't up to par. Sure, they look like they've got lots of dry goods, but their inventory is often deep with one particular item but not very wide in terms of diversity. when you need to find something special, you often have to run to several stores trying to find what you need. IMO that's really bad.

its an economic problem. to get good prices on things from the manufacturers, most of the LFS have to make a large purchase of one particular item to get end column pricing. so its not uncommon to go to an LFS and find that they've just dumped a lot of money into buying Marineland filters (or something else), so the store is overstocked with one particular item. the item goes on sale because they're overstocked and they need to quickly to pull out some cash. unfortunately when the store engages in channel stuffing like that, the store ends up being short on some of the other things that you might be looking for. I had trouble finding antibiotics at the Ark, for example, and I ended up having to obtain prescription drugs at Walgreens when I needed them in an emergency. if the LFS isn't going to be stocking emergency items, then there is very little reason for me to consider ever going there.

 

[bigevill1]

I feel like we need to support our LFS whenever we can despite thier shortcomings. If we dont eventually all there will be are basement shops and petsmarts.

 

[pescadero]

basement shops are some of the best LFS around. i think that by supporting a basement shop, you are supporting an LFS that caters to a niche market. IMO that's a good thing.

as much as i don't like petsmart's bogus "price matching" policy, i do like the fact that they keep some things in inventory that i couldn't find at the other LFS. i will gladly support any store that has what i need when i need it, but i seen to reason whatsoever to support any merchant that doesn't bother to keep emergency supplies on hand. if you can't rely on an LFS in an emergency, they might as well not even be there.

 

[Fuppets]

I'd like to support a LFS when ever its within reason. I've told some stores the internet price on stuff from MD with free shipping and no tax. They have told me their cost isn't that low. More than once they told me to let them know when I out that order in they might get something.

 

[JNye]

Fuppets are you saying they asked you to order stuff for them to resell?!
I decided a few months back the only thing I would buy from LFS's is corals, fish only if they will hold it for me. If they say no I won't buy. I might no even want them to hold it unless it just came in, but I'd still ask to see if they'd do it. But i doubt I will ever buy a fish from a store, its not an impulse buy anymore for me.

 

[pescadero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12219082#post12219082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fuppets
I'd like to support a LFS when ever its within reason. I've told some stores the internet price on stuff from MD with free shipping and no tax. They have told me their cost isn't that low. More than once they told me to let them know when I out that order in they might get something.

yeah, the economics are really strange when an LFS has to buy from some place like DFS to get a price that's lower than what their distributor charges them for inventory.

that all goes back to the multiple tiered pricing structure that i mentioned earlier. people who own an LFS that buy a small quantity, like 1-10 units, pay a higher price than if they bought 11-25 units, or 26-50 units, or 50+ units, etc. so somebody like DFS (or Wal-Mart) comes along and bargains a special price for 100,000 units. They get a price that's so good that the Mom and Pop stores can't even compete. Then they see an internet price that's lower than their wholesale price for small quantity purchases.

The only way for a small shop to compete is to bite the bullet, and to commit a huge amount of their store's capital to in to purchasing a large order of dry goods. Then they're stuck with a lot of their money tied up in one SKU, with not enough money to go around for other stuff. That's why you'll see thousands of dollars worth of Marineland or Perfecto filters spilling out into the aisles at a place like Pet Haven or The Ark, and no antibiotics are on the shelf when you need them the most.

This isn't a problem that's caused by people like me and Joe preferring not to shop at the LFS. To say that really avoids the core issue -- Its a problem that's caused by the manufacturers, who create an non-level playing field by providing deep discounts off of the standard wholesale price to the big order customers, and insignificant wholesale discounts to the small order customers. Its called tiered wholesale pricing. The big stores get end-column pricing and the little stores don't. Then as an act of predation, the big stores sell the stuff on the internet at a price that is lower than the first-tier wholesale price for the Mom and Pop stores.

There are two ways around the problem:

The first is an MAP pricing policy, or Minimum Advertised Pricing. In a half-baked token effort to level the playing field, the manufacturer requires that nobody can advertise a sale price below a certain level, which is above the Mom and Pop first tier pricing schedule. That sort of method is very common with consumer electronics. You'll see Crazy Larry advertising sales with "Prices that are too low to print." But that sort of inability to advertise tends to anger the big stores, which are the manufacturer's best customers. So most manufacturers just favor the people who write the biggest checks and screw Mom and Pop. Its the Wal-Mart model.

The second way around the problem is for Mom and Pop to bite the bullet, and spend their money to take big bites in inventory. Doing this requires that the store is well capitalized. They resort to buying more inventory than they really need, can actually sell, or have room for on the floor. Manufacturers force the Mom and Pop shops to do this so that the manufacturer's quarterly sales numbers look good. The Wall Street term for this is "channel stuffing." Lots of manufacturing companies do this to buff up their sales figures. Wall Street analysts don't like it, because it misrepresents actual sales and allows the company to hide this quarter's bad news until the next quarter's reports are due.

I have been through all of this, having owned a small shop that was put out of business by the big publicly traded megastores. When a merchant tells you that the internet price is below his cost, he's not telling you the whole truth -- its not below the wholesale costs that are available to him -- its only below the wholesale cost that he can get for the volume of product that he is willing to buy. If he were willing to deploy more capital then he could buy at a better price. The problem is that most Mom and Pop stores operate on a shoestring budget and the owners pull the money out of the store as fast as they can.

Retail is a tough spot to be in.

 

[Fuppets]

No for their personal use.

 

[JNye]

that is too funny! even LFS people don't buy dry goods from LFSs.

To sort of add to that I have talked to a few LFS employees(lower 20s age) and after asking why livestock was sooo insanely priced(capture the sea) he admitted he would never pay those prices either, and that is the way the owner prices his stuff. He told me he likes Go Fish. I had to agree.

I also talked to a kid at Pet supplies Plus in dyer? or schereville, he said he used to work at the Ark and he told me some real horror stories, and I have never seen any coral look truely good and healthy there. Their fish only tanks are sparkling usually though, and their dry goods section is the best I have seen in IN.

 

[pescadero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12221518#post12221518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by poo-tang
that is too funny! even LFS people don't buy dry goods from LFSs.

that says it all, now doesn't it? :lol:

 

[pescadero]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12221518#post12221518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by poo-tang
... he said he used to work at the Ark and he told me some real horror stories, and I have never seen any coral look truely good and healthy there. Their fish only tanks are sparkling usually though, and their dry goods section is the best I have seen in IN.

i also think that their coral side is way too dark. i always thought that they weren't doing a good job at cleaning the salt off of the bulbs. someone else told me that their coral display used to be really bright, but that the bulbs are just really old and in serious need of replacement. you know there's a problem when the acro colony is right up on top and it stays brown because its not getting enough light.

 

[Fuppets]

NO one ever did order with me. At the time I just thought it was just BS.

 

[crewf16chief]

did you guys ever think that they dont bring stuff in because of the internet. the internet is just like walmart. They can buy things at thousand items and once and so they get it cheaper. The internet is cutting the market out from under the feet of the LFS and that is why i choose support LFS when i can because i dont have my tank running right know but that is why i think they have a hard time bringing in dry goods. I will also say this I think exotic aquatics understands that and that is why they dont have a lot of dry goods(my opionon). What kinda of emergences are you talking about. I was always under the idea that if your water quality is right and you watch your tank that you dont need medication.

 

[bigevill1]

Amen

 

[Fuppets]

He ordered fish that were infected. They all died and took along with them other fish that were also in the QT with them. I think he ordered 24 fish and had 2 make it. All were in a quarantine tank. That is, I belive, the emergency he is talking about.

 

[crewf16chief]

so he ordered fish from the internet and they were infected or he but 24 fish and put them in the tank. either way if you put 24 fish in a tank your going to have fish that die. The eco system cant take that spike in ammonia and other chemicals to have a high survival rate. In my opionon if you have taking care of fish for at least a year you should know not to add that many fish at one time. But like you said that is what you think happened. And this is just my opionon but i mean why would you put 24 fish in one tank at one time if that is what happened.

 

[Fuppets]

Some of the fish were DOA. I'm not sure what is Qt set up is but I would think 24 ,if that many made it to the QT, 1/2 inch chromies in a 90 gal established QT wouldn't be that bad. Probably less spike that a single 4 or 5 inch grouper.
Also I think he was running the full battery of test hourly or something. He said he was up until like 3am with the fish.

 

[crewf16chief]

well in that case if some were doa then there was faulty packaging or the temp. was going up and down so much during shipping that they would end doa. But lets look at the fish adding process. If you add 10 chromies you are also adding food for them and what ever they dont eat dissolves and adds bio load, fish poop adds to the load. and not to pick on anyone, but how did he introduce the fish to the tank did he drip them before adding them. I guess what i'm trying to say is that there are so many things that could've prevented this from happening. I also believe and experienced that if you stress out about your fish they can feel that stress and make the situation worse. a QT is so you can put them in and forget about them(to a point) so they can get comfortable to your routine so that when the stress of the main tank comes on them they are hardy and healthy to fight back from the other fish

 

[crewf16chief]

you take the steps slow and keep the stress levels down you dont need medication.

 

[bigevill1]

I am pretty sure he spent hours acclimating them. Thats what I read anyway.