a few copper ?'s

[glaukos]

hi guys can you please give me your lights?

i decided to make my old 70 gallon a QT

in my new one i will add a gold rim which as we all know probably
will give him and me some hard time with ich

my ?'s are
1.which is better to use in case we have ich
hypo? or copper?

2.does copper clean the fish from ich or the water also?

3.what is harder to the fish
hypo? or copper?

4.if i go with copper should i use it right after i put him in the qt
as a precaution?when i see him first scratcing?when he gets the first spots?

5.has anybody lost a fish using copper despite the fact he did
everything by the book?

thanks in advance for any help

 

[Gwynhidwy]

1. I prefer copper because in my experience it is more effective. I use Cupramine because in my experience it is the easiest copper medication to use and the safest for the fish.

2. Copper based meds will kill the parasite that causes ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). After treatment there shouldn't be any parasites still alive on the fish or anywhere in the tank or water.

3. Many people say that hypo is easier on the fish, but I'm not sure that I agree. I have seen more people lose fish in properly administered hypo than in properly administered copper treatment.

4. I don't treat with Cupramine until I see symptoms, but many people treat all their new fish with a copper based med just to be careful.

5. I have never lost a fish using Cupramine.

 

[glaukos]

thanks gwynhidwy you are great!
you draw for me the hole picture,thanks again!!

so copper i will use!

my only ? 1.left is when to start it.
i will not treat before i see the syptoms.
start when i see the first spots or wait until they take over him?
i will surelly not leave him battle it on his own with my fingers crossed
in my oldone i had a hepatus that had 8-10 marks maximum and then they dissapeared
to come one more and last time

1000 thanks again and in some days i may need your experience once more

p.s
2.for how many days did you use it?
wait until he is better or i should pass a timeline?f.e 3-4 weeks

 

[Gwynhidwy]

You are most welcome.

Not everyone prefers to treat with copper, so don't go just on what I say. Many people prefer hypo. If I didn't use Cupramine, I would likely use the tank transfer method.

1. I would start treatment when you first see symptoms. I would NOT wait for the fish to be overwhelmed, but it is important to make sure that you are using the right treatment. Just because you see spots doesn't necessarily mean your fish has ich. There are many diseases that cause spots as a symptom and even some things that aren't diseases but look similar like when microbubbles or sand get stuck to the fish.

The reason the spots went away and then came back has to do with the life cycle of the parasite that causes ich. For part of its life it attaches to the fish, this is when you see the spots. After the parasite has fed enough it falls off the fish so that it can reproduce, this is when the spots disappear. Once it has reproduced, the new parasites will attach to the fish and then the spots come back. Fish can also have the parasite, but no spots because sometimes the parasite will only be in the gills where you can't see it without a microscope.

2. I use Cupramine for 14 days. Then I observe the fish for several more weeks in the hospital tank to make sure that symptoms don't reappear. I have never had to treat twice with Cupramine, but I like to be cautious. If you don't use Cupramine, follow the directions on the bottle of what you get. Also, whatever product you use, you must test the copper level in the water. I test twice each day to make sure the copper level is high enough to kill the parasite and not so high as to harm the fish.

Keep in mind that copper meds are very toxic to invertebrates so you don't want to use it in your main tank. Copper will also be absorbed by live rock and aragonite based sands, so its usually best to use it in a hospital tank with pvc pipe for hiding in and a simple sponge filter. Keep an eye on the ammonia level too, if your hospital tank doesn't have an established filter you may need to do water changes.

 

[glaukos]

a big thank you again gw!

great info!

i will use cupramine
the tank has no sand,no rock.
i will only add something for them to hide.
it will now be my hospital tank

1.as for the water changes i will do about 20-25 litres every 4 days.is it ok?

2.i guess that when i do the wc the copper level will go a bit down and i should fix the difference?

3.my "friends" list is the gold rim,1 clown,one chromis and a sixline
that's all i want and maybe later one and absolutely last larytail.
is it wise and ok to do the copper now so everyone is clean when they go to the dt?

clown,chromis and sixline are absolutely clean but with the tang you never know!

a big sorry for the time you spent on my?'s and a bigger thanks for your answers!

 

[wooden_reefer]

You are most welcome.

Keep an eye on the ammonia level too, if your hospital tank doesn't have an established filter you may need to do water changes.

+1

Actually, if you have not yet bought your new fish, you should certainly cycle the medium for the QT first.

Cycling for QT is very very easy. This is very much easier than cycling with collected live rock. When cycling for QT, using sponges, polyester floss or crushed coral or oyster shell, you are not concerned about preserving any lives on any live rock. Without collected LR, you don't need to change water during cycling. Just use the seed and waste method. As easy as falling off a log, so to speak. No work at all whatsoever. just patience for a few weeks.

I think cycling with collected LR makes cycling far more difficult than cycling per se has to be. Cycling is to cultivate nitrification bacteria, lots of them.

I always QT against ich (but not only against ich) for at least eight weeks. For fish I use hypo and/or copper for the full duration. If I don't have nitrification in QT, it would mean water change and/or Amquel for eigth weeks. No No No. Too much work for me, plus the expenses.

QT is rather easy for me because I prepare in advance. I think many who claim that QT is stressful just have not prepared for QT adequately.

 

[1geo]

You should consider using Formalin 37%. Copper will only cure Ich. It is difficult to tell the difference between Ich and Brooklynella without a tissue slide under a microscope. Copper will NOT cure Brook; only Formalin will. Formalin will also cure Ich and do so in 10 days where copper takes 4 weeks.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I am not sure if he already has the gold rim or if he plans to have it.

It is kind of vague to say that it takes four weeks with copper to cure ich. Most fish will be free from obvious signs of ich in a matter of days with copper. To break the lifecycle forever it takes longer. Eight weeks is pretty good in general.

I don't know how formalin kills ich. Never tried it for long. Does formalin kill all ich at once?

 

[1geo]

The idea is to kill the swimmer of both Ich and Brook and to dislodge the parasites from the body and gills of the live fish. Formalin in the concentration of 1cc per gallon will do that. In lower concentrations like 1cc per 10 gals it will kill the swimmers only. Since Formalin does not acclimate in water, it starts to dissipate once its mixed and in two hours after mixing it gone. So the idea is to mix a fresh bath of 37% Formalin and give your fish a 1 hour bath. This will dislodge the parasites from the gills and body and kill them. One bath a day every other day for 10 days, a total of 5 baths and your fish will be cured of both Ich and Brook. In addition, I add 1cc to my 10 gal QT tank daily just to kill any swimmers that are in the QT water. I also do a 40% water exchange every other day during the treatment period of 10 days. It works for me.

 

[Gwynhidwy]

You're welcome

1. I decide how much water to change based on the results that I get from the water testing I do. If I get any ammonia reading I change water until there is no detectable ammonia.

2. Any water that I add to the aquarium during water changes I dose with Cupramine following the bottle's directions.

3. If you are comfortable with the treatment process it is fine to treat new fish just to be safe.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The idea is to kill the swimmer of both Ich and Brook and to dislodge the parasites from the body and gills of the live fish. Formalin in the concentration of 1cc per gallon will do that.


I also do a 40% water exchange every other day during the treatment period of 10 days. It works for me.

This is interesting.

Still some work, IMO.

But copper does not treat brook, yes, you are right. Besides, formalin is more effective against many other parasites as well.



I treat with copper and/or hypo for eight weeks. No work, little water change, once in week five if there are many fish in QT at once. Later, by week seven or eight, I may need some water change using other drugs.

I just pulse with straight copper every three or so days. Basically, as far as work is concerned, I just wait it out against the last ich organism, for about eight weeks.

I never need to test for ammonia in QT except if I have to use a drug that could affect nitrification. This is because I know for sure that there will never be any ammonia and nitrite, as the medium for QT has been cycled very well.

 

[glaukos]

VERY VERY usefull guys!
thanks for all the inputs!

i will read more about formalline but for the moment coppers seems easier
1.where do you buy it from?

i already bought a cupramine bottle and one salifert test.

i'm happy that i already know all of the things you told me and
i'm ready for action if my fish needs to!

thanks again gw,wooden and 1geo!

so my plan is:
if my ca test is ok(it was low today) rock and my corals will go to the new one
and i will officialy make my old tank hospital.

the only thing inside will be my friends,clown,chromis and sixline and .....the water!lol
2.is it ok to add some old decoration(fake clams and rock from my freshwater tank?

so when my other amigo arrives i will put him in the hospital to see how he will go
and act accordingly for all the fishes together.

i will 20-25 litres wc every 2 days just in case!

thanks again!

 

[Gwynhidwy]

I wouldn't use decorations from your freshwater tank unless you know for sure what they are made of and that they won't harm your fish (some decorations used in freshwater are toxic to marine life) and that they won't interact with the copper. I use PVC pipes for hiding places. Can you get some of those?

 

[glaukos]

ok gw i won't do that
i don't have pvc but i have some spare big green rubber pipe from the ones we use
for our garden .1)should i put it inside?

i had some progress today
i went to my lfs to get some salt for the wc and he had left a small pbt
with his body covered of white spots.
he knows what i want to do and he told me that if i'm willing to try and save him he would give it to me free.

i like gold rim by far far far but i asked him what he will do if i don't take him and he replied "nothing" because he doesn't have time and qt!!!

so i took him.
he is small,eating,not fat but not skinny.he is not a waste of time

i will start copper today

i moved the rest of my rock,corals,snails and cleaner shrimps and in
my old tank are left only the fish.

the total volume of the water is 200 litres-52 gallons
i will use only the 140 litres-36 gallons

some more ?'s
2)my salanity is 1,024-is it ok to drop it during copper to 1,020?
3)will copper change something else like ph?

for the 36 gallon the bottle guide says i should use 58 drops.
just to be sure i will drop 50 for start and test tomorrow.

4)it also says that 2 weeks will be enough.is it true?
5)will fish lose their appetite or behave weird?

i really hope everything goes well.

 

[wooden_reefer]

ok gw i won't do that
i had some progress today
i went to my lfs to get some salt for the wc and he had left a small pbt
with his body covered of white spots.
he knows what i want to do and he told me that if i'm willing to try and save him he would give it to me free.

Freebies like this is what I like.

If you have the setup to eradicate ich in QT, existing even heavy ich infestation is not different. Treat the same way.

A very healthy fish can come down with heavy ich. Often, if you can save it, it has high chance of living for many years.

I am sometimes convinced that ich has little to do with the general health of a fish. It is NOT true that only a weak fish gets ich. Ich is a matter of chance, to a large degree.

 

[glaukos]

you made my day-night here- wooden!

i'll do my best with him!

 

[Maivortex]

oopd

 

[glaukos]

???

 

[Gwynhidwy]

1. I don't know what your garden pipes are made of. If you can check and make sure they aren't toxic that would be good.

2. You can drop your salinity to 1.020, but don't drop it too low. At lower salinity the fish is more likely to be harmed by the copper in the water.

3. Cupramine has never affected my pH, but it can cause ammonia tests to give a false positive. The Seachem ammonia test and their ammonia alert badges don't have that problem.

4. 2 weeks has always been enough for my fish, but just to be safe I keep them in quarantine for several weeks after to watch for symptoms to reappear.

5. My fish have always continued to eat and behave normally.

 

[glaukos]

big thanks again gw

fish are in the 2nd day of qt
only the pbt has white spots.
but his skin shows that there will be more

i dosed yesterday the recomended dosage for my gallons and my levels todau where
somewhere between 0 and 0.10
i did put some more today,half the doasage of yesterday.

will test again tomorrow

he is eating everything and with passion and swim a lot.
no heavy breating.

if he goes clean and live i will name him hulk or hercules