A few LED questions

[iwishtofish]

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding LED applications (and effectiveness), despite how much I read. So I'm hoping someone can help answer a few questions for me.

I need to light a frag/refugium section of my 40 breeder sump. The chamber is about 18"x14", and about 18" tall. I'd like to be able to grow an assortment of LPS and SPS frags in there. I have a Marine Depot gift certificate, so that's where I'll try to shop for lighting solutions.

Questions:

1) Would a combination of one Ecoxotic PAR 38 bulb (40*) and one Ecoxotic Panorama module be a good solution to create different lighting zones for the different corals?

2) Do the Panorama modules even put out enough PAR (or PPFD) to effectively grow corals anywhere other than the top of my water?

3) How high above the water would I have to place the PAR 38 module to keep from frying anything? I have a fair amount of room in my stand above the sump (maybe another 20"), but maybe not enough...

4) How does the Ecoxotic PAR 38 bulb compare to a 150w MH (Phoenix 14k) in regard to lighting power?

Thanks to anyone who might want to tackle this!

 

[Shard]

1) Which Ecoxotic panorama are you talking about? The 12w supplemental strips, or one of the larger fixtures?

2) See above, depends on the fixture.

3) I use a Par38 with 60deg optics as a temporary solution over a nano tank of mine. It is mounted about 8 inches over the water, and it almost covers the tank (Nanowave 9g). If you go this route, I would go with wider optics (80 deg maybe), and mount it higher. I would say to at least get 2 of them also.

4) Well Par38 bulbs, regardless of manufacturer, usually come with 5 x 3W LEDs, so 15W of LED power. You really need a lot more than 15W of LEDs to equate to 150W of Metal Halide. For example, I would say my 24 x 3W AI LED fixtures (72W of LEDs) equate to about a 250W Metal Halide.

Give me a little more information about the above, and I will let you know.

Just going to throw this out there... I don't know if Marine Depot sells AI products, but the AI Nano Sol seems like it would cover your fuge/frag area fairly well, and costs about $360 I think.

Hope this helps,
Landon

 

[Anemonebuff]

A par38 bulb with 60* optics will surpass the PAR of a 150w MH in the 10-12" circle under the bulb. The MH will do far better in the spread department though(about 18-20"). The AI's at full power are closer to a 400w MH when it comes to PAR.

 

[Anemonebuff]

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding LED applications (and effectiveness), despite how much I read. So I'm hoping someone can help answer a few questions for me.

I need to light a frag/refugium section of my 40 breeder sump. The chamber is about 18"x14", and about 18" tall. I'd like to be able to grow an assortment of LPS and SPS frags in there. I have a Marine Depot gift certificate, so that's where I'll try to shop for lighting solutions.

Questions:

1) Would a combination of one Ecoxotic PAR 38 bulb (40*) and one Ecoxotic Panorama module be a good solution to create different lighting zones for the different corals?

2) Do the Panorama modules even put out enough PAR (or PPFD) to effectively grow corals anywhere other than the top of my water?

3) How high above the water would I have to place the PAR 38 module to keep from frying anything? I have a fair amount of room in my stand above the sump (maybe another 20"), but maybe not enough...

4) How does the Ecoxotic PAR 38 bulb compare to a 150w MH (Phoenix 14k) in regard to lighting power?

Thanks to anyone who might want to tackle this!

You could use the PAR38 with 40* optics over the frags, but if this frag tank is shallow 60* optics will be fine. The amount of space you need to cover will determine how many PAR38's you'll need.

For the refugium the Panoramas will work or you could get PAR30 LEDs in the 4000-6000K range for far less than the reef type ones cost.

 

[Shard]

Anemonebuff,
To get my 20K Par38 with 60deg optics to cover a 12 x 12 area I had to raise it up 14 inches above the water line. This is why I doubt 40 degree optics (more focused) would be good over an even larger area (18 x 14). This is the reason I suggested 80 deg optics. The OP seems to suggest he would like to use a single bulb. If he would be willing to go with two, then yes I think 60deg optics would work.

You did bring up good points about spread patterns, but I think the OP will mis-interpret your post and think a single 15W LED fixture is equal to an overall 150W MH, which is not really the case. You mention that one Par38 has more, or equal PAR around the center of the focus than a MH does. I would like to see some measurements that show this. Are there any published? Are they getting the same PAR measurements at depth?

Thanks,
Landon

 

[iwishtofish]

1) Which Ecoxotic panorama are you talking about? The 12w supplemental strips, or one of the larger fixtures?

I'm referring to the single modules. I originally wanted to place two over the area in question, but then I read an article (Google searched) that measured par for these strips, and it didn't seem at all impressive. Of course, I may have misinterpreted things - as well, I don't really know anything about the source of the article, or if these are first-generation modules that were tested. It just got me wondering...

http://www.yousaytoo.com/ecoxotic-panorama-module-par-numbers/195721



2) See above, depends on the fixture.

3) I use a Par38 with 60deg optics as a temporary solution over a nano tank of mine. It is mounted about 8 inches over the water, and it almost covers the tank (Nanowave 9g). If you go this route, I would go with wider optics (80 deg maybe), and mount it higher. I would say to at least get 2 of them also.

If I want to save money, it looks like I'd be restricted to the 40* optics. I believe that's all Marine Depot is selling for the Ecoxotic PAR 38s.

4) Well Par38 bulbs, regardless of manufacturer, usually come with 5 x 3W LEDs, so 15W of LED power. You really need a lot more than 15W of LEDs to equate to 150W of Metal Halide. I have a 150w Aqua Medic pendant, but I'm hoping to keep that heat out of the stand. For example, I would say my 24 x 3W AI LED fixtures (72W of LEDs) equate to about a 250W Metal Halide.

Give me a little more information about the above, and I will let you know.

Just going to throw this out there... I don't know if Marine Depot sells AI products, but the AI Nano Sol seems like it would cover your fuge/frag area fairly well, and costs about $360 I think.

I'll look at that. I think I'd have to save up!

Hope this helps,
Landon

 

[iwishtofish]

A par38 bulb with 60* optics will surpass the PAR of a 150w MH in the 10-12" circle under the bulb. The MH will do far better in the spread department though(about 18-20"). The AI's at full power are closer to a 400w MH when it comes to PAR.

That would probably work fine for me, having only a 12" area of high-par light (providing the whole 12" is SPS-suitable). I was just hoping the Panorama single module would take up the slack for LPS corals.

I think a 400w MH-equivalent LED fixture would boil the small area I'm hoping to light!

 

[Shard]

I am not a big fan of 1W LED reef fixtures at all really. You are right that those numbers in that article are less than impressive.

Those Ecoxotic Par38 bulbs are 12k, will look brighter than my 20k Par38s, so they will probably give you the perception of covering more than my 20k does. I would still say you would need two at a minimum to cover your space, which is going be about $240.

I would probably save up the extra $120 to get the AI Nano SOL. It is kind of cool giving you touch button functions on the fixture itself to control your color mixture. You can dim the fixture, or change the color spectrum from 10-20k with the swipe of a finger.

That being said, I like my Par38. Comes in handy for emergency lighting needs, and is great for spot lighting darker spots in larger setups or specific corals.

Hope this helps,
Landon

 

[iwishtofish]

I am not a big fan of 1W LED reef fixtures at all really. You are right that those numbers in that article are less than impressive.

Those Ecoxotic Par38 bulbs are 12k, will look brighter than my 20k Par38s, so they will probably give you the perception of covering more than my 20k does. I would still say you would need two at a minimum to cover your space, which is going be about $240.

I would probably save up the extra $120 to get the AI Nano SOL. It is kind of cool giving you touch button functions on the fixture itself to control your color mixture. You can dim the fixture, or change the color spectrum from 10-20k with the swipe of a finger.

That being said, I like my Par38. Comes in handy for emergency lighting needs, and is great for spot lighting darker spots in larger setups or specific corals.

Hope this helps,
Landon

Ok, thanks, Landon. It looks like Marine Depot doesn't sell the AI fixtures, and that the Panorama strips might only look fancy. I'll either just use the MH pendant that I have and try to deal with the heat, or take a chance that two of the 40*, 5-LED, 21-watt Ecoxotic PAR 38s will do the trick for me.

 

[Shard]

Ok, thanks, Landon. It looks like Marine Depot doesn't sell the AI fixtures, and that the Panorama strips might only look fancy. I'll either just use the MH pendant that I have and try to deal with the heat, or take a chance that two of the 40*, 5-LED, 21-watt Ecoxotic PAR 38s will do the trick for me.

I wouldn't try doing the MH in an enclosed stand. Go with the two Par38s. I guess I should have said "two par38s would be great" instead of "you need two at a minimum" Those should work great, and give you proper coverage for the area you want to cover.

Landon

 

[iwishtofish]

I wouldn't try doing the MH in an enclosed stand. Go with the two Par38s. I guess I should have said "two par38s would be great" instead of "you need two at a minimum" Those should work great, and give you proper coverage for the area you want to cover.

Landon

That sounds like a lot easier option! How high would you hang them over about 17" of water, for best results? Do you think they'd provide plenty of light for SPS down at the bottom? Would there likely be some "shadowed" area where LPS might do OK?

Edit: Oh, would you recommend the 12k (2-royal blue, 3-white), or the 453nm (5-royal blue)?

 

[Shard]

That sounds like a lot easier option! How high would you hang them over about 17" of water, for best results? Do you think they'd provide plenty of light for SPS down at the bottom? Would there likely be some "shadowed" area where LPS might do OK?

Edit: Oh, would you recommend the 12k (2-royal blue, 3-white), or the 453nm (5-royal blue)?

Definitely 12k. The actinic (453nm) bulbs are supplemental lighting, not meant for primary lighting.

As for mounting, just get them and adjust them by looking at them when they are on. 17" of headroom gives you a lot to work with. They should grow SPS fine also, even on the bottom. Out of curiosity, how deep is your fuge area?

Landon

 

[iwishtofish]

Definitely 12k. The actinic (453nm) bulbs are supplemental lighting, not meant for primary lighting.

As for mounting, just get them and adjust them by looking at them when they are on. 17" of headroom gives you a lot to work with. They should grow SPS fine also, even on the bottom. Out of curiosity, how deep is your fuge area?

Landon

It's actually a "combo" area...I really shouldn't call it a fuge, even though I may isolate some chaeto in there at some point.

It's the area to the left in the photo below. The skimmer will be converted to in-sump (yeah, we'll see ) and be moved to the drain area to the far right. The return line will be Tee'd off to feed the left chamber.

It doesn't look that way in the picture, but there's actually 18.5" from the top of the 40b to the ceiling of the sump.

 

[Shard]

I use a Eshopps HOB in one my tanks also.

Yeah two should cover it fine. Two 12k bulbs. Regardless of whether the area is a fuge or frag area, completely actinic bulbs would not be enough.

 

[iwishtofish]

Ok, thanks for all the advice!

 

[Anemonebuff]

Anemonebuff,
To get my 20K Par38 with 60deg optics to cover a 12 x 12 area I had to raise it up 14 inches above the water line. This is why I doubt 40 degree optics (more focused) would be good over an even larger area (18 x 14). This is the reason I suggested 80 deg optics. The OP seems to suggest he would like to use a single bulb. If he would be willing to go with two, then yes I think 60deg optics would work.

You did bring up good points about spread patterns, but I think the OP will mis-interpret your post and think a single 15W LED fixture is equal to an overall 150W MH, which is not really the case. You mention that one Par38 has more, or equal PAR around the center of the focus than a MH does. I would like to see some measurements that show this. Are there any published? Are they getting the same PAR measurements at depth?

Thanks,
Landon

Maybe I should clarify. I was trying to say that you may need 40* optics for a deeper tank, not that it would provide better coverage. I was then saying that if the tank is not deep that 60* optics would be fine and would provide better coverage when closer to the water.

You can get PAR readings from Nanotuners that they have graphed.

Beeker posted PAR readings for the 40* Nanotuners:


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1746535&page=12

 

[iwishtofish]

Maybe I should clarify. I was trying to say that you may need 40* optics for a deeper tank, not that it would provide better coverage. I was then saying that if the tank is not deep that 60* optics would be fine and would provide better coverage when closer to the water.

You can get PAR readings from Nanotuners that they have graphed.

Beeker posted PAR readings for the 40* Nanotuners:


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1746535&page=12

That's very interesting data, Anemonebuff - thanks for providing that. It seems to bring back my original concern, however, that, almost in spite of the optics used, there might be very little usable area in my 18d x 14w x 18t frag section where the par would exceed 200 (even with two fixtures). I DO realize they are designed as spotlights, though. I'm still tempted to experiment with them.