Billybeau1
Premium Member
A number of reefers do this. They seem to like the results. I do not see any problem with this plan.
A General Guide to Salt Mixes
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A number of reefers do this. They seem to like the results. I do not see any problem with this plan.
What I don't understand is how Corallife which is Central Aquatics lowest end salt had some high Ca and Mg levels. With those elements esp. Mg more costly to add, why would their ecomony salt have so much? I did speak with the chemist at Central Aquatics who formulates the salt and they did just reformulate Corallife and he said it is the best at the moment, but when Kent is reformulated they expect it to be the best on the market
Billybeau1
Premium Member
As I have stated before, I have a problem with the word "best".
Best salt for whom ? All tanks are different.
We'll just have to see how the new formulas shake out.
Best salt for whom ? All tanks are different.
We'll just have to see how the new formulas shake out.
SCIFI_3D_zoo
New member
I didn't see where you tested for pH in your brands tests.
Billybeau1
Premium Member
:lol: Hi EvilE
You've heard my speech before I'm sure.
Do we need a refresher course.
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Billybeau1
Premium Member
The initial pH of any salt mix has little effect on your tanks pH. CO<sub>2</sub> is much more of a factor and therefore salt manufacturers rarely mention pH in their salt analysis.
Back on track, I read another post, don't believe here, where the posted was absolutely bashing Dr. Shimek's bioassay. His point was the two salts that fared very well in the survivablityof the larvae area, had sodium thiosulfate in the salt. BUT, the Cystal Sea mix was actually MEI's Crystal Sea BIOASSAY Formula, which does NOT have the sodium thiosulfate. Don't know if that helps anyone.
When I was testing various salts, I was alarmed when Crsytal Sea had like 360 ppm Ca, I instantly called the rep from the company and assured me it was higher. I told him how I tested it and what kit I used(Tropic Marin), I said well, TM is a reputable company... He's rebuttal was, all consumer tests kits are just that, consumer. He said, to used Merck or Hach and I will see better results. Also, he said, human error is huge when it comes to test kits. I took it with a "grain of salt" and went on my way. I still would like to send salt samples to Hach and let the pro's use pro kits and get a real answer.
Billybeau1
Premium Member
That was a blue angel. He got too big for my tank and quite aggressive so I sent him to a new home. The bigger tank he is in now no doubt curbed his sudden aggressiveness.
Billybeau1
Premium Member
On the other subject, The rep you talked to obviously did not know what he was talking about.
Both Crystal Sea formulas I tested were around 340 and 350 ppm for calcium. There are some consumer (hobby grade) test kits that do a pretty good job at testing calcium in seawater.
I suspect he was fishing. :lol:
The real answer is that both Crystal sea formulas run around 350 ppm Ca++ @ 35 ppt or 1.0264
I do not need a Hach to tell me that.
Both Crystal Sea formulas I tested were around 340 and 350 ppm for calcium. There are some consumer (hobby grade) test kits that do a pretty good job at testing calcium in seawater.
I suspect he was fishing. :lol:
The real answer is that both Crystal sea formulas run around 350 ppm Ca++ @ 35 ppt or 1.0264
I do not need a Hach to tell me that.
SCIFI_3D_zoo
New member
So the moral of the story... take test kit readings with a grain of salt. And if you get a bad # do it again with another kit, diff. brand... THEN take that with a grain of salt also? 
I guess the range of accuracy here is so slight these kits should be ok for us most of the time. And since pH is so important, and a pH meter is less than $100, a lot of people buy one of those AND a refractometer. I don't hear a lot of the experts here buying much more and they have great tanks.
And as far as salt mixes go... we can use Randy's Water Chem. Guideline to pick a brand... and tailor it to your situation if you need too. Maybe you have low Alk. problems, or something else. Or you like to run your Ca or Alk at a certain range and you can find a salt specifically for your tastes. I guess once you setup a Ca+ reactor/KALK/2-part system you want to keep everything the same and use the same salt.
I think my ALK tests are right. I did it 3x with diff. brands. I think the 20% change just wasn't enough to alter my tank much. But the mix is 11 dKH and my tank is 7 dKH. I haven't used it much either... I want to pick a brand and stay with it. Gotta take COSTS $$ into account too. Something like SeaChem has higher #'s all around but I don't think it justifies the PRICE$.
What about other trace elements added to salt?? Any notable diff. between brands and that? Even if it's just off the label and not verified.
Reef Aquaria Recommendation: (Randy's GUIDELINES)
Calcium 380-450 ppm
Alkalinity 2.5-4 meq/L, 7-11 dKH
sg = 1.025-1.027
pH 7.8-8.5 OK, 8.1-8.3 is better
Magnesium 1250-1350 ppm
I guess the range of accuracy here is so slight these kits should be ok for us most of the time. And since pH is so important, and a pH meter is less than $100, a lot of people buy one of those AND a refractometer. I don't hear a lot of the experts here buying much more and they have great tanks.And as far as salt mixes go... we can use Randy's Water Chem. Guideline to pick a brand... and tailor it to your situation if you need too. Maybe you have low Alk. problems, or something else. Or you like to run your Ca or Alk at a certain range and you can find a salt specifically for your tastes. I guess once you setup a Ca+ reactor/KALK/2-part system you want to keep everything the same and use the same salt.
I think my ALK tests are right. I did it 3x with diff. brands. I think the 20% change just wasn't enough to alter my tank much. But the mix is 11 dKH and my tank is 7 dKH. I haven't used it much either... I want to pick a brand and stay with it. Gotta take COSTS $$ into account too. Something like SeaChem has higher #'s all around but I don't think it justifies the PRICE$.
What about other trace elements added to salt?? Any notable diff. between brands and that? Even if it's just off the label and not verified.
Reef Aquaria Recommendation: (Randy's GUIDELINES)
Calcium 380-450 ppm
Alkalinity 2.5-4 meq/L, 7-11 dKH
sg = 1.025-1.027
pH 7.8-8.5 OK, 8.1-8.3 is better
Magnesium 1250-1350 ppm
Billybeau1
Premium Member
Well SciFi, I wish it was as easy as you tried to summarize things.
Unfortunately it is not.
If you spend enough time on the boards your will see all sorts of curves and dents in your synopsis.
Some people get excessive microalgae growth with some salt mixes. Others do not.
Some people get excessive cloudiness with some salt mixes. Other do not.
Some people have troubles getting their chemistry numbers in line. Others do not.
I am well aware of the recommended numbers for reef chemistry. Whether you choose to keep them on the low end or the high end depends on how your tank looks under these different scenarios.
99 times out of 100, your tank will tell you if you are doing what they want for success.
If the formula was as easy as you said, we wouldn't need this forum, would we.
Unfortunately it is not.
If you spend enough time on the boards your will see all sorts of curves and dents in your synopsis.
Some people get excessive microalgae growth with some salt mixes. Others do not.
Some people get excessive cloudiness with some salt mixes. Other do not.
Some people have troubles getting their chemistry numbers in line. Others do not.
I am well aware of the recommended numbers for reef chemistry. Whether you choose to keep them on the low end or the high end depends on how your tank looks under these different scenarios.
99 times out of 100, your tank will tell you if you are doing what they want for success.
If the formula was as easy as you said, we wouldn't need this forum, would we.
SCIFI_3D_zoo
New member
Jeez... I don't know what to say now. You're depressing me. 
I'd like to know what salt mixes are poor grade.. probably get what you pay for most of the time. THey all say they don't have Phosphates... but it takes such a minute amount to cause problems. People say a lot of things too... my salt caused an algae bloom... but it's all anecdotal without some concrete evidence. And what is that... inaccurate test kits... poor test kit procedure?
BUT is there any official opinion on tested salt mixes that are known to be poor? I have read how some salt mixes have problems from time to time.
I think most of what you are saying is what people will notice after doing this for years and years. They'll play with #'s and say what they perceive to make a difference... but again, to me, it's all anecdotal. But if somebody is successful with a really nice tank you gotta take their opinion into consideration... but's it's not fact. These are just opinions... not lab tested fact.
BUT where does one start? I think just going with Randy's #'s everything should be fine. Stuff will grow quicker or slower but won't die at least. BUt what about testing though? Are these kits accurate enough to at least tell us with confidence that we are inside the recommended Ca+ range? Just the range? Then that should be good enough to start with. But it would be good to know if there are kits that are know to be tested as the best for certain tests. Is there a FAQ or definitive list for KITS and SALT like this somewhere?
I mean.. some don't get algae wtih salt and some don't. That's not science. We can't really make much of stories people may have. Either that manufacturer has a problem all the time, or it was a fluke? Maybe it's the user and it had nothing to do with the salt? Or they could have had already borderline Phos. levels and their salt pushed them over the edge? Nobody really knows. And just b/c they do a Phos. test real quick is not 100% either. So the question then is "What do we really know"? Are there some things for sure?
It should be this easy. I mean.. water is water. Temp. is temp. There must be some common denominators here that are really important. You make it sound like we all should have diff. pH b/c our tanks are all that different. I think what's going on here is we're all still really figuring out how this hobby work yea?? I mean look at the new TOTM... he has NO REFUGIUM. But he adds a lot of additives and foods. PWhitby doesn't add any additives, or coral foods (I don't think) , just feeds fish. We should be able to break down the diff. methods and find out what really works. I think one day this will be finally figured out and it will be alot easier.
One thing we can do now is eliminate the really bad kits and salt mixes from our choices. We have to be able to test the water with some confidence. Or how do we know if the salt mix is really bad and responsible for something.
I'd like to know what salt mixes are poor grade.. probably get what you pay for most of the time. THey all say they don't have Phosphates... but it takes such a minute amount to cause problems. People say a lot of things too... my salt caused an algae bloom... but it's all anecdotal without some concrete evidence. And what is that... inaccurate test kits... poor test kit procedure? BUT is there any official opinion on tested salt mixes that are known to be poor? I have read how some salt mixes have problems from time to time.
I think most of what you are saying is what people will notice after doing this for years and years. They'll play with #'s and say what they perceive to make a difference... but again, to me, it's all anecdotal. But if somebody is successful with a really nice tank you gotta take their opinion into consideration... but's it's not fact. These are just opinions... not lab tested fact.
BUT where does one start? I think just going with Randy's #'s everything should be fine. Stuff will grow quicker or slower but won't die at least. BUt what about testing though? Are these kits accurate enough to at least tell us with confidence that we are inside the recommended Ca+ range? Just the range? Then that should be good enough to start with. But it would be good to know if there are kits that are know to be tested as the best for certain tests. Is there a FAQ or definitive list for KITS and SALT like this somewhere?
I mean.. some don't get algae wtih salt and some don't. That's not science. We can't really make much of stories people may have. Either that manufacturer has a problem all the time, or it was a fluke? Maybe it's the user and it had nothing to do with the salt? Or they could have had already borderline Phos. levels and their salt pushed them over the edge? Nobody really knows. And just b/c they do a Phos. test real quick is not 100% either. So the question then is "What do we really know"? Are there some things for sure?
It should be this easy. I mean.. water is water. Temp. is temp. There must be some common denominators here that are really important. You make it sound like we all should have diff. pH b/c our tanks are all that different. I think what's going on here is we're all still really figuring out how this hobby work yea?? I mean look at the new TOTM... he has NO REFUGIUM. But he adds a lot of additives and foods. PWhitby doesn't add any additives, or coral foods (I don't think) , just feeds fish. We should be able to break down the diff. methods and find out what really works. I think one day this will be finally figured out and it will be alot easier.
One thing we can do now is eliminate the really bad kits and salt mixes from our choices. We have to be able to test the water with some confidence. Or how do we know if the salt mix is really bad and responsible for something.
racer69
New member
For those interested, AquariumWaterTesting.com did a professional analysis of most of the major brands of salt and some of the results are interesting. I think this is a much better method and more precise than our home kits or a manufacturers claim. Here is the link:
http://aquariumwatertesting.com/AWT_Salt_Analysis_0208.pdf
http://aquariumwatertesting.com/AWT_Salt_Analysis_0208.pdf
SCIFI_3D_zoo
New member
Wow... interesting. According to that Coralife had the best #'s by far. But a lot of the data was in mg/l. I don't know or care to convert all of that to ppm and meq/l. I "ASSUME" the values are insignificant b/c for instance... everybody had 0.3-0.4 mg/l NITRATES but it must not be anything significant in ppm b/c I'm not aware of any problem with nitrates in salt mixes across the board like that. But Coralife had the lowest stuff like Nitrate, Phos... and the highest good stuff like Ca+.. "overall". I say overall b/c I'm sure there was probably somebody who beat them here or there in one test or another but they were top in just about every catagory... at least in their tests. AND that assumes again.. that #'s are significant b/c I don't know what mg/l is compared to ppm and meq/l.
So I'm still left with the question... what's the best salt for me? My Instant Ocean had some of the highest Nitrate and Phos. #'s here but right on the side of my container it says "Nitrate Free"... "Phosphate Free".
So I'm still left with the question... what's the best salt for me? My Instant Ocean had some of the highest Nitrate and Phos. #'s here but right on the side of my container it says "Nitrate Free"... "Phosphate Free".
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