RandyO
Active member
Just came across this article and thought I'd share it. It may have been posted here already. If so I missed it.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/corals
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/corals
A Great Article of why you should dip all incoming corals
- Thread starter RandyO
- Start date
toddmh
New member
Jebus, my brain hurts... Thanks?
lots of stuff there to learn,but 100% worth it..
Thanks for the link Randy
Thanks Randy.So many parasites/predators. It's a wonder we keep anything vibrant.
This is the thread I mentioned the other day regarding folks using an insectacide for dips with some success. I'm watching this one. I plan to try it at some point:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1965880
This is the thread I mentioned the other day regarding folks using an insectacide for dips with some success. I'm watching this one. I plan to try it at some point:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1965880
The J Man
New member
Soil Concentrate 10mL/1L(Bayer/Satlwater) for 10 mins, then dipped/swirled in container of saltwater, then rinsed with saltwater before going back into the tank.
Some people recommend using a lower dose for longer on some SPS, I certainly would if I had something I wasn't sure on.
Last edited:
Bluephish13
New member
I used interceptor dog meds on my old tank for red bugs. Dosed the entire tank a few times, it killed them off and they never came back. I used the pills for large dogs. I even tested some acros in very high concentration dips and none showed any ill signs.
While it is harmless to mammals and breaks down quickly in the athmosphere and sunlight it's toxic to aquatic life.Here is some cautionary information regarding the BAYER approach and the highly toxic cyfluthrin in it:
"..pyrethroids are toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms. At extremely small levels, such as 2 parts per trillion.."
From this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethroid
Note; cyfluthrin is a pryethroid.
So, if I use it ,it would be for dips only and then only a frag or two at a time . I don't know if the coral tissue will carry some into the tank or not. Parts per trillion is a very small amount. Interestingly this stuff comes from deriitatives of certain flowers like cyrsanthemums where it serves as a natural defense.
"..pyrethroids are toxic to fish and other aquatic organisms. At extremely small levels, such as 2 parts per trillion.."
From this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethroid
Note; cyfluthrin is a pryethroid.
So, if I use it ,it would be for dips only and then only a frag or two at a time . I don't know if the coral tissue will carry some into the tank or not. Parts per trillion is a very small amount. Interestingly this stuff comes from deriitatives of certain flowers like cyrsanthemums where it serves as a natural defense.
MD Ocean Girl
New member
Tom,
Jesse and I only ever use it for dips. We only dip a couple frags at a time. We have one specific pail that is only ever used for the dip water. After the dip, we do two transfers of the corals into fresh saltwater, letting the corals soak in each for 5-10 minutes. Each soak is done in a different container that is only used for that purpose. After that, we'll hold the coral over the sink/tub, and rinse it off with yet more fresh saltwater. Only then do they get put back into the tank.
We've done this a few times, and so far, haven't lost any corals, or any inverts/pods/fish in our tanks. I honestly don't know if the coral tissue will carry anything back into the tanks or not. So far, it doesn't seem to happen. After your information, I might do a few more soak-transfers before the final rinsing, just to be sure.
Do NOT put this stuff in your tank. This is just a promising option to dip corals (especially if the problem is red bugs) if you don't have easy access to interceptor.
Jesse and I only ever use it for dips. We only dip a couple frags at a time. We have one specific pail that is only ever used for the dip water. After the dip, we do two transfers of the corals into fresh saltwater, letting the corals soak in each for 5-10 minutes. Each soak is done in a different container that is only used for that purpose. After that, we'll hold the coral over the sink/tub, and rinse it off with yet more fresh saltwater. Only then do they get put back into the tank.
We've done this a few times, and so far, haven't lost any corals, or any inverts/pods/fish in our tanks. I honestly don't know if the coral tissue will carry anything back into the tanks or not. So far, it doesn't seem to happen. After your information, I might do a few more soak-transfers before the final rinsing, just to be sure.
Do NOT put this stuff in your tank. This is just a promising option to dip corals (especially if the problem is red bugs) if you don't have easy access to interceptor.
I'm just not sure if it builds up over time in the tank . It breaks down readily in the air which makes it environmentally safe when used for terrestrial plants since not much if any gets to the ground water but it does show up in effluent from sewage treatment facilities which may mean it doesn't degrade very quickly in water. Just don't know. I'm going to wait a bit longer before attempting it,. I'll research it a bit more.
Interceptor(milibemcyin oxime) is fine as a dip too but needs some time. Unfortunately the manufacturer Novartis has stopped production and it is unavailable ;so it's going to be hard to get a prescription for it filled if you are lucky enough to have one.
Bluephish13
New member
wow! good to know i have one tab left, got to make sure i don't lose it.
Sophie10
Member
Interceptor, and the other heartworm + meds are very expensive. I have two large breed dogs! If you are using the whole pill as a treatment, that would be 7 - 8 dollars a treatment. The Bayer complete is $12.98 for 32oz, a cost of about $0.14 per treatment! If the Bayer is proven safe, and it seems it is, I would try this (with caution, of course!)
But... I know we don't put a price tag on the reef's health!
Let's take a closer look at what's in The Bayer porduct it and how it might work or do harm.
The soil and garden Bayer Complete Insect Killer concentrate has 2 active ingredients:
1) The cyfluthrin(.36%) is very toxic to fish and other aquatic animals. Toxcity for fish in parts per trillion is scary to me. For perspective inverts die at free copper toxicity in parts per billion. This stuff is 1000 times as lethal to fish as copper is to inverts. It's a relatively large organic and kills things with things with porous extoskeltons as it diffuses into them and blocks sodium clearing channels blocking of nuero signals causing paralysis. Whether it can permeate the cell wall of coral tissue or not and be freed up later is a big question. I don't know how long it lasts in water so build up with multiple frags added overtime might be an issue
If I use it and I'm inclined not to at this time ,I'll use it sparingly , avoid treating any porous plugs or rocks where it might have a better chance of hanging out and rinse treated specimens very thoroughly before putting them back in the tank.
The second active ingredient is imidachlorpid(.72%) also kills by paralysis. It is broken down quickly by photons and last from 1 to 4 hours in sunlit water. It is not very toxic to fish but lethal to inverts.
From wikipedia:
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
"Aquatic life
Imidacloprid is highly toxic on an acute basis to aquatic invertebrates, with EC<sub>50</sub> values = 0.037 - 0.115 ppm. It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp. Its toxicity to fish is relatively low; however, the EPA has requested review of secondary effects on fish with food chains that include sensitive aquatic invertebrates.<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">[10]</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
It's not clear whether the imadachlorpid alone would be sufficient to kill red bugs , aefw or other pests. but it is available without the cyfluthrin in other products for fruit trees and as a termiteacide.
The other Bayer product being reported on the SPS froum thread is Bayer complete insect killer with germ killer for the home. It contains cyfluthrin and a bacteria /fungcidie and no imadachlorpid.
The soil and garden Bayer Complete Insect Killer concentrate has 2 active ingredients:
1) The cyfluthrin(.36%) is very toxic to fish and other aquatic animals. Toxcity for fish in parts per trillion is scary to me. For perspective inverts die at free copper toxicity in parts per billion. This stuff is 1000 times as lethal to fish as copper is to inverts. It's a relatively large organic and kills things with things with porous extoskeltons as it diffuses into them and blocks sodium clearing channels blocking of nuero signals causing paralysis. Whether it can permeate the cell wall of coral tissue or not and be freed up later is a big question. I don't know how long it lasts in water so build up with multiple frags added overtime might be an issue
If I use it and I'm inclined not to at this time ,I'll use it sparingly , avoid treating any porous plugs or rocks where it might have a better chance of hanging out and rinse treated specimens very thoroughly before putting them back in the tank.
The second active ingredient is imidachlorpid(.72%) also kills by paralysis. It is broken down quickly by photons and last from 1 to 4 hours in sunlit water. It is not very toxic to fish but lethal to inverts.
From wikipedia:
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
"Aquatic life
Imidacloprid is highly toxic on an acute basis to aquatic invertebrates, with EC<sub>50</sub> values = 0.037 - 0.115 ppm. It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp. Its toxicity to fish is relatively low; however, the EPA has requested review of secondary effects on fish with food chains that include sensitive aquatic invertebrates.<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">[10]</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid#cite_note-EPAproblem-9</sup>
It's not clear whether the imadachlorpid alone would be sufficient to kill red bugs , aefw or other pests. but it is available without the cyfluthrin in other products for fruit trees and as a termiteacide.
The other Bayer product being reported on the SPS froum thread is Bayer complete insect killer with germ killer for the home. It contains cyfluthrin and a bacteria /fungcidie and no imadachlorpid.
Let's take a closer look at what's in The Bayer porduct it and how it might work or do harm.
The soil and garden Bayer Complete Insect Killer concentrate has 2 active ingredients:
1) The cyfluthrin(.36%) is very toxic to fish and other aquatic animals. Toxcity for fish in parts per trillion is scary to me. For perspective inverts die at free copper toxicity in parts per billion. This stuff is 1000 times as lethal to fish as copper is to inverts. It's a relatively large organic and kills things with things with porous extoskeltons as it diffuses into them and blocks sodium clearing channels blocking of nuero signals causing paralysis. Whether it can permeate the cell wall of coral tissue or not and be freed up later is a big question. I don't know how long it lasts in water so build up with multiple frags added overtime might be an issue
If I use it and I'm inclined not to at this time ,I'll use it sparingly , avoid treating any porous plugs or rocks where it might have a better chance of hanging out and rinse treated specimens very thoroughly before putting them back in the tank.
The second active ingredient is imidachlorpid(.72%) also kills by paralysis. It is broken down quickly by photons and last from 1 to 4 hours in sunlit water. It is not very toxic to fish but lethal to inverts.
From wikipedia:
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
"Aquatic life
Imidacloprid is highly toxic on an acute basis to aquatic invertebrates, with EC<sub>50</sub> values = 0.037 - 0.115 ppm. It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp. Its toxicity to fish is relatively low; however, the EPA has requested review of secondary effects on fish with food chains that include sensitive aquatic invertebrates.<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">[10]</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
It's not clear whether the imadachlorpid alone would be sufficient to kill red bugs , aefw or other pests. but it is available without the cyfluthrin in other products for fruit trees and as a termiteacide.
The other Bayer product being reported on the SPS froum thread is Bayer complete insect killer with germ killer for the home. It contains cyfluthrin and a bacteria /fungcidie and no imadachlorpid.
The soil and garden Bayer Complete Insect Killer concentrate has 2 active ingredients:
1) The cyfluthrin(.36%) is very toxic to fish and other aquatic animals. Toxcity for fish in parts per trillion is scary to me. For perspective inverts die at free copper toxicity in parts per billion. This stuff is 1000 times as lethal to fish as copper is to inverts. It's a relatively large organic and kills things with things with porous extoskeltons as it diffuses into them and blocks sodium clearing channels blocking of nuero signals causing paralysis. Whether it can permeate the cell wall of coral tissue or not and be freed up later is a big question. I don't know how long it lasts in water so build up with multiple frags added overtime might be an issue
If I use it and I'm inclined not to at this time ,I'll use it sparingly , avoid treating any porous plugs or rocks where it might have a better chance of hanging out and rinse treated specimens very thoroughly before putting them back in the tank.
The second active ingredient is imidachlorpid(.72%) also kills by paralysis. It is broken down quickly by photons and last from 1 to 4 hours in sunlit water. It is not very toxic to fish but lethal to inverts.
From wikipedia:
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
"Aquatic life
Imidacloprid is highly toxic on an acute basis to aquatic invertebrates, with EC<sub>50</sub> values = 0.037 - 0.115 ppm. It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp. Its toxicity to fish is relatively low; however, the EPA has requested review of secondary effects on fish with food chains that include sensitive aquatic invertebrates.<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">[10]</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference">
</sup>
<sup id="cite_ref-EPAproblem_9-5" class="reference"></sup>
It's not clear whether the imadachlorpid alone would be sufficient to kill red bugs , aefw or other pests. but it is available without the cyfluthrin in other products for fruit trees and as a termiteacide.
The other Bayer product being reported on the SPS froum thread is Bayer complete insect killer with germ killer for the home. It contains cyfluthrin and a bacteria /fungcidie and no imadachlorpid.
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