A more "Green" system
- Thread starter Jamokie01
- Start date
Im a strong advocate of DSB, but I disagree that running BB will use more energy. With the efficiency of tunze streams, it doesnt take much wattage to turn your tank into a tidal wave. Not to mention there are some efficient pumps you can use for your skimmer if your willing to spend the money. And I personally know people who have switched from 250watters to 150 after going BB with no ill effects on coloration.
tperk9784
New member
As others have pointed out Higher flow in the tank does equate to a lot more power and I think you will find that many BB'rs need to reduce their photo periods or even change to lower wattage bulbs to keep from negatively effecting corals. The most common reason I have seen attributed to this is water clarity due to the lack of SB.
The only point I will agree is that most BB tanks run larger skimmers than their SB counterparts but I tend to see that most people oversize their skimmer anyway.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Ive been into this for some time now. You can go back and find this thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=550482&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Since then, the practice has caught on more here it seems (that, or just more people are posting about it).
Anyways, here are my suggestions to save on your electrical bill:
-use natural sunlight. If you can use natural sunlight, go for it. Its more economical and effective than solar power, as solar power has a pretty high startup cost, and even the most efficient systems are only converting about 10% of the light they take in. A skylight or solatube costs a fraction of this, and means you can skip alot of your bulbs, reflectors, etc... and your heat levels are significantly lower since sunlight only provides radiant heating. Even the most efficient bulbs (halides) still waste about 75% of their electricity on conducted heat. Even as far north as I am, its still loads of light considering our tanks are about 2' deep on average, and in the wild the corals are 5-25 meters deep.
-If you cant use natural sunlight, use the most efficient lighting possible... and no, I dont mean LED's (yet). The most efficient bulbs are still 10,000K halides. Dont like all that yellow? Well... going with a bluer halide isnt the best idea either, as outputs tend to halve if not more. Rather, use a bulb that can make blue light more effectively than halide... use T5s. A MH+T5 system is the best combo per watt that you can get. T5s can make blue light better, and halides can make daylight better. Together... whoah. Also, whenever possible, use light movers. Click on my little red house to see how mine is. I love it, and my corals do as well. A few other hobbyists in my club are trying them as well, and very pleased with the results. They make one halide do the work of what 2, sometimes 3 would be required to do. I use mine on the main display, and with the supplimental T5s, it doesnt even mess with the 'viewability' of the tank... I would actually say it enhances it. And as far as bulbs, reflectors, ballasts.... dont cheap out... you will most likely end up spending more later to replace them, and you wont be getting the 'bang for the buck' that you could have otherwise. Use lumenarc3 style pendants, since a larger reflector like this will carry light farther than a smaller pendant. Use quality bulbs and ballast combos for the best output per watt. Also, get a PAR meter. The $300 that they cost is nothing compared to what knowing actual light levels will do for you in the long run. Because of my meter, I was able to figure out the minimal amount of lighting needed for my tank, and still have SPS growing like weeds (Im looking at a frag-a-thon or bust in the next 4 months here... and the tank is new!). I estimate my meter has saved me about $1000, and easily saved those in my club about the same. Having a concrete way to measure light levels w/o having to guess is a huge saver. I dont have to guess how much, or when I have to change a bulb... I know.
-Use low wattage, high flow pumps whenever possible. The only high-head pump on your system should be the return pump, and that doesnt even need to be that large. I use an eheim 1250 for my 125g... things are great. This adds less heat to the tank as well. Use tunze streams/prop driven pumps rather than closed loops. The major argument against Tunzes is that they stick out in the tank... well... not if you plan ahead. Look at Iwan's tank... a 200g with 3 tunzes that you cant even tell are there. I am going to be using a page from his methods and making aragacrete pillars for the back of my tank (to cover the overflow/back as well) to allw the tunzes to sit inside a 'shelf' that will allow them to blend into the back wall as well as a bulkhead and piece of loc-line, if not better. If you must do a closed loop, look into ReefFlo pumps. 3600gph for 140watts with minimal heat transfer is still a great deal. Pair it up with an Oceansmotions or some 'sea-swirls' and that one pump will be hitting more spots in the tank with its output than a fixed output.
- Vents. Use a canopy, or seal the room your tank is in from the rest of the house. Heat and humidity wont show up on the electric bill from your tank, but your AC will be working double time if not more. I have helped a buddy seal off his basement sump room/frag tanks and it dropped his monthly bill by a couple hundred dollars right there... just from the AC. I use a canopy that is designed to be vented to the outside via a 100cfm fan and a 4" duct. That way, all the hot and humid air goes right outside (spouses like to note the smell has been removed as well).
-Use evaporative cooling, and a good size top-off. Use fans to remove heat from the tank's surface. The amount of heat that a fan can remove through evaporation is more than you might think because the phase change allows water to absorb more heat energy than the body of water its coming from... so you can actually cool water to 80 degrees F in a 90 degree room with fans alone. Just be sure your ATO is up to the task. Also, due to my low electrical use, my 125g doesnt even have fans running yet in the middle of summer, and it stays 80 24/7.
-use efficient skimmers. That dual beckett skimmer thats using 250 watts of electricity might be replaced by something smaller, as well as 1/10th the wattage.
-use aragacrete. Its cheaper than live rock. Its more adaptable than live rock. Its lower 'impact' than LR. Reef Ceramics are all the rage in the EU. Then you just pick a few nice pieces of 'show' LR to 'seed' the system. You can also buy dry LR by the pound for about $2 from multiple places. Its mined from dry land which was once a coral reef. After a few months in the tank... its 100% LR.
-Use passive systems whenever possible. Got a recirc skimmer? Try to feed it from an overflow. The skimmer can be smaller because it will perform that much better... getting water from the surface and all, and you will eliminate a feed pump. Click my red house for more. My return pump feeds my skimmer, my Ca reactor, my phos reactor, and carbon chambers, as well as circulating the refugium and being the return. Not bad for 20 watts (kill-a-watt reading on my eheim 1250).
AS far as BB vs DSB... I dont see the point of debating. You are going to provide the flow that your corals need. You could have 90x turnover in a tank w/ sand (I have), and a BB with much less because otherwise your zoas and rics might get blown right off their rocks. Besides, as long as you use efficient flow methods with either type, the actual savings will be negligable.
Since then, the practice has caught on more here it seems (that, or just more people are posting about it).
Anyways, here are my suggestions to save on your electrical bill:
-use natural sunlight. If you can use natural sunlight, go for it. Its more economical and effective than solar power, as solar power has a pretty high startup cost, and even the most efficient systems are only converting about 10% of the light they take in. A skylight or solatube costs a fraction of this, and means you can skip alot of your bulbs, reflectors, etc... and your heat levels are significantly lower since sunlight only provides radiant heating. Even the most efficient bulbs (halides) still waste about 75% of their electricity on conducted heat. Even as far north as I am, its still loads of light considering our tanks are about 2' deep on average, and in the wild the corals are 5-25 meters deep.
-If you cant use natural sunlight, use the most efficient lighting possible... and no, I dont mean LED's (yet). The most efficient bulbs are still 10,000K halides. Dont like all that yellow? Well... going with a bluer halide isnt the best idea either, as outputs tend to halve if not more. Rather, use a bulb that can make blue light more effectively than halide... use T5s. A MH+T5 system is the best combo per watt that you can get. T5s can make blue light better, and halides can make daylight better. Together... whoah. Also, whenever possible, use light movers. Click on my little red house to see how mine is. I love it, and my corals do as well. A few other hobbyists in my club are trying them as well, and very pleased with the results. They make one halide do the work of what 2, sometimes 3 would be required to do. I use mine on the main display, and with the supplimental T5s, it doesnt even mess with the 'viewability' of the tank... I would actually say it enhances it. And as far as bulbs, reflectors, ballasts.... dont cheap out... you will most likely end up spending more later to replace them, and you wont be getting the 'bang for the buck' that you could have otherwise. Use lumenarc3 style pendants, since a larger reflector like this will carry light farther than a smaller pendant. Use quality bulbs and ballast combos for the best output per watt. Also, get a PAR meter. The $300 that they cost is nothing compared to what knowing actual light levels will do for you in the long run. Because of my meter, I was able to figure out the minimal amount of lighting needed for my tank, and still have SPS growing like weeds (Im looking at a frag-a-thon or bust in the next 4 months here... and the tank is new!). I estimate my meter has saved me about $1000, and easily saved those in my club about the same. Having a concrete way to measure light levels w/o having to guess is a huge saver. I dont have to guess how much, or when I have to change a bulb... I know.
-Use low wattage, high flow pumps whenever possible. The only high-head pump on your system should be the return pump, and that doesnt even need to be that large. I use an eheim 1250 for my 125g... things are great. This adds less heat to the tank as well. Use tunze streams/prop driven pumps rather than closed loops. The major argument against Tunzes is that they stick out in the tank... well... not if you plan ahead. Look at Iwan's tank... a 200g with 3 tunzes that you cant even tell are there. I am going to be using a page from his methods and making aragacrete pillars for the back of my tank (to cover the overflow/back as well) to allw the tunzes to sit inside a 'shelf' that will allow them to blend into the back wall as well as a bulkhead and piece of loc-line, if not better. If you must do a closed loop, look into ReefFlo pumps. 3600gph for 140watts with minimal heat transfer is still a great deal. Pair it up with an Oceansmotions or some 'sea-swirls' and that one pump will be hitting more spots in the tank with its output than a fixed output.
- Vents. Use a canopy, or seal the room your tank is in from the rest of the house. Heat and humidity wont show up on the electric bill from your tank, but your AC will be working double time if not more. I have helped a buddy seal off his basement sump room/frag tanks and it dropped his monthly bill by a couple hundred dollars right there... just from the AC. I use a canopy that is designed to be vented to the outside via a 100cfm fan and a 4" duct. That way, all the hot and humid air goes right outside (spouses like to note the smell has been removed as well).
-Use evaporative cooling, and a good size top-off. Use fans to remove heat from the tank's surface. The amount of heat that a fan can remove through evaporation is more than you might think because the phase change allows water to absorb more heat energy than the body of water its coming from... so you can actually cool water to 80 degrees F in a 90 degree room with fans alone. Just be sure your ATO is up to the task. Also, due to my low electrical use, my 125g doesnt even have fans running yet in the middle of summer, and it stays 80 24/7.
-use efficient skimmers. That dual beckett skimmer thats using 250 watts of electricity might be replaced by something smaller, as well as 1/10th the wattage.
-use aragacrete. Its cheaper than live rock. Its more adaptable than live rock. Its lower 'impact' than LR. Reef Ceramics are all the rage in the EU. Then you just pick a few nice pieces of 'show' LR to 'seed' the system. You can also buy dry LR by the pound for about $2 from multiple places. Its mined from dry land which was once a coral reef. After a few months in the tank... its 100% LR.
-Use passive systems whenever possible. Got a recirc skimmer? Try to feed it from an overflow. The skimmer can be smaller because it will perform that much better... getting water from the surface and all, and you will eliminate a feed pump. Click my red house for more. My return pump feeds my skimmer, my Ca reactor, my phos reactor, and carbon chambers, as well as circulating the refugium and being the return. Not bad for 20 watts (kill-a-watt reading on my eheim 1250).
AS far as BB vs DSB... I dont see the point of debating. You are going to provide the flow that your corals need. You could have 90x turnover in a tank w/ sand (I have), and a BB with much less because otherwise your zoas and rics might get blown right off their rocks. Besides, as long as you use efficient flow methods with either type, the actual savings will be negligable.
RichConley
New member
Except they're less efficient, and create more heat per watt than MHs.
Dont believe PFO's advertising. Its nothing but FUD.
RichConley
New member
I'm sorry, but none of this is accurate. SB tanks need just as big skimmers and just as much flow as BB tanks. They just take longer to fail when they dont have those things.
The Less Light thing has nothing to do with water clarity, it has everythign to do with nutrient levels. Food and light go hand in hand with SPS corals. Less nutrients means corals can survive less light. Running 400w on a low nutrient tank will kill your sps.
tperk9784
New member
Everything I have read says BB tanks have less dissolved solids in the water column. wouldn't this also have an effect on light penetration?
I also believe that you are right, less nutrients in the water mean less zoox to burn off to get good colors.
Maybe they go hand in hand.
i'm running my daughters reef on 60 watts plus a 50 watt heater.its a 10 gallon tank with 2 LED panels with a total of 248 bulbs under 20 watts.the 10 gallon sump is run by a quietone pump 13.5 watts,a 28 watt coralife pc for the chaetto,and a 50 watt heater.
my 55 gallon reef runs on 331 watts plus 100 watt heater.216 watts t5,10 watts skimmer,the sump pump quietone3000 40 watts,pc light for chaetto 65 watts,plus a 100 watt heater.
i think i'm doing as good as possible for now.i could replace the rest of the lights with LED but i'm not sure i like them yet.
my 55 gallon reef runs on 331 watts plus 100 watt heater.216 watts t5,10 watts skimmer,the sump pump quietone3000 40 watts,pc light for chaetto 65 watts,plus a 100 watt heater.
i think i'm doing as good as possible for now.i could replace the rest of the lights with LED but i'm not sure i like them yet.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
The power of LED's lies in their ability to be focused into almost laser-like beams of light that diffuse less. So their 'delivery system' is what makes them good, and their future potential will be awesome. But whats out there right now, as you can see... isnt really all that great. For a wide tank like a frag tank or something more than 18" front to back... they are pretty dark, and not all that efficient.
Great post, hahnmeister!
I'm also using the natural sunlight - the only problem is that it will require temperature controller (with cooler or movable shades) or a human attendant. Temperature in a sunny day raises quickly and the weather is unpredictable...
Can you give more details on venting outside? I researched this some time ago, but the heating costs should jump up immediately, when there are -30C outside
And in short (or link) about sealing the fish room - does it mean covering all the walls and ceiling with dry wall for bathroom use (the green one)? Is there a way to make the ceiling, at least, removable for inspections?
Thanks.
Back to the topic: the way I see the energy conservation, is keeping the tanks with inhabitants, that prefer to live at lower temperatures, doesn't require additional light to an ambient, daily or heavy feedings, have very few of them, so the system is more or less self-supporting, excluding some water changes and/or alkalinity additive.
If I'm not qualified to say so, sorry
(hint on another thread, expecting a storm on my head).
I'm also using the natural sunlight - the only problem is that it will require temperature controller (with cooler or movable shades) or a human attendant. Temperature in a sunny day raises quickly and the weather is unpredictable...
Can you give more details on venting outside? I researched this some time ago, but the heating costs should jump up immediately, when there are -30C outside
And in short (or link) about sealing the fish room - does it mean covering all the walls and ceiling with dry wall for bathroom use (the green one)? Is there a way to make the ceiling, at least, removable for inspections?
Thanks.
Back to the topic: the way I see the energy conservation, is keeping the tanks with inhabitants, that prefer to live at lower temperatures, doesn't require additional light to an ambient, daily or heavy feedings, have very few of them, so the system is more or less self-supporting, excluding some water changes and/or alkalinity additive.
If I'm not qualified to say so, sorry
(hint on another thread, expecting a storm on my head).its true about them LEDs i pointed a 6 by 8 inch panel around the room and it was like a mag light lol.the beem is so narrow i had to use 2 panels for a 10 gallon tank and i should of used 3 panels cause you can just make out the space between the 2 panels where its not as bright.it also took a long time for the corals to adjust to it,which makes me wonder if its even the correct spectrum for coral or if their just relying on its intensity to get the job done.
RichConley
New member
BB tanks have less dissolved solids than poorly run sand bed tanks.
People need to stop pushing this myth that sand bed tanks dont need flow or proper skimming.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
dendro982,
Well, for a climate like that, I would vent during summer, and then just keep the fans off when its cold out. Thats what Im going to do on mine as well. Ill just seal up the canopy in winter all together. Heat shouldnt be a problem with your tank as much though, natural sunlight and all. The light would most likely need supplimentation in winter though... not much... but something more than just to add more blue. I dont think that with the natural lighting that you should need controllers for the sunlights. My suggestion would be to just have shades that you can adjust manually, and then a PAR meter ($300 Apogee)... so that way you KNOW exactly what light levels you are getting. Then you can adjust the light in summer to be what you need... usually something like 500 at the top, and 150-200 at the bottom for a daily average. I dont think you have to worry about heat though. If you have the equal of 4x400watt halides through sola-tubes or skylights, you will still only be getting 1/4 the heat, because you dont have any ballasts, bulbs, etc... only radiant heat.
As for sealing up the room... Greenboard is an option, but then you have to paint it. FRP panelling is another option, and I think you might like it because then you could make it removable.
Regards.
Jon
Well, for a climate like that, I would vent during summer, and then just keep the fans off when its cold out. Thats what Im going to do on mine as well. Ill just seal up the canopy in winter all together. Heat shouldnt be a problem with your tank as much though, natural sunlight and all. The light would most likely need supplimentation in winter though... not much... but something more than just to add more blue. I dont think that with the natural lighting that you should need controllers for the sunlights. My suggestion would be to just have shades that you can adjust manually, and then a PAR meter ($300 Apogee)... so that way you KNOW exactly what light levels you are getting. Then you can adjust the light in summer to be what you need... usually something like 500 at the top, and 150-200 at the bottom for a daily average. I dont think you have to worry about heat though. If you have the equal of 4x400watt halides through sola-tubes or skylights, you will still only be getting 1/4 the heat, because you dont have any ballasts, bulbs, etc... only radiant heat.
As for sealing up the room... Greenboard is an option, but then you have to paint it. FRP panelling is another option, and I think you might like it because then you could make it removable.
Regards.
Jon
hahnmeister: Thank you, will think about it. FRP panelling sounds very attractive, have to check how to mount it on the ceiling and how to make removable seam seals.
Pity, than there are no miracle solution for heat recovery in the winter. For a summer only now I've ever greener way : the open windows and wind across the house, except the time of the heat wave (+30C ). No central AC, of course.
Direct sunlight: so far all is regulated manually, vinyl shades and 12" fan. After water temperature reaches 82F, have to start cooling. The condy anemone, together with the babies Tridacnas, are the good indicator of the light required (and overheating too), until the better times for a PAR meter
After this thread I started to check similar information, there was mentioned possibility of using programmable thermostats for the central heating for a stopping tank heating or starting cooling, until borderline temperature is reached.
Very useful thread: so many possibilities, listed in one place. Thanks, people!
Pity, than there are no miracle solution for heat recovery in the winter. For a summer only now I've ever greener way
: the open windows and wind across the house, except the time of the heat wave (+30C ). No central AC, of course.Direct sunlight: so far all is regulated manually, vinyl shades and 12" fan. After water temperature reaches 82F, have to start cooling. The condy anemone, together with the babies Tridacnas, are the good indicator of the light required (and overheating too), until the better times for a PAR meter
After this thread I started to check similar information, there was mentioned possibility of using programmable thermostats for the central heating for a stopping tank heating or starting cooling, until borderline temperature is reached.
Very useful thread: so many possibilities, listed in one place. Thanks, people!
kirstenk
23.5 Degrees
The most efficient bulbs are still 10,000K halides. Dont like all that yellow? Well... going with a bluer halide isnt the best idea either, as outputs tend to halve if not more. Rather, use a bulb that can make blue light more effectively than halide... use T5s. A MH+T5 system is the best combo per watt that you can get.
I tend to think that going with a higher kelvin MH bulb would be more "Green".
For every T5 on the tank, we must consider the energy and materials used to manufacture, package and ship them plus the waste from that process vs only Halide use.
I used to use 330W of VHO but now I don't because I switched to 12K MH's. I've reduced which saves energy on my end and the suppliers reduce as demand has gone down.
My corals are just as happy.
I tend to think that going with a higher kelvin MH bulb would be more "Green".
For every T5 on the tank, we must consider the energy and materials used to manufacture, package and ship them plus the waste from that process vs only Halide use.
I used to use 330W of VHO but now I don't because I switched to 12K MH's. I've reduced which saves energy on my end and the suppliers reduce as demand has gone down.
My corals are just as happy.
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