A new 30g...

[kriation]

Evening folks!

I haven't kept fish in a couple of years, and finally decided to take the plunge again. However, this time, I've decided to build a saltwater tank. My experience has been with freshwater tanks (of various sizes) and Bettas in the past, and since I was relatively successful with them, I'm moving to a greater challenge.

A few moments ago, I finished setting up a 30g breeder for a small reef that I'll be attempting to build in the next few months. With the help of my LFS, the following major equipment was what we decided on:

All-Glass 30g Breeder
Nova Extreme T5H0x2 (1xActinic, 1x10k)
Emperor 400 (I had super good luck with the emperor 280 on previous tanks, and decided to go with the 400 in this tank)
Visi-Therm Stealth 100w (Great experience with visi-therm in the past as well)
Hydor 1 (will probably pick up another one for the opposite corner as I want to make sure I have decent circulation throughout the tank)
Instant Ocean (for those who are curious)

Eventually, I plan on hosting a U-shaped formation of assorted live rock, a relatively decent sized cleanup crew, and a variety of small coral. At some point in the future, I'd like to introduce a couple of small fish (gobies, and/or blemies).

Right now, I'm waiting for things to settle in the tank. Temperature isn't completely normalized yet, and neither has the salinity. I'm not going to introduce live rock, or the live substrate until the tank seems ready.

In the mean time, here a couple of photos I took of the setup.

If you have any suggestions, or comments, please comment!

Looking forward to learning from all of you as I continue with this adventure!

-- Armen

 

[taillonjohn]

I would not get the emporer, its not needed for a reef tank (but if you want fish only it would work). i would use the money to buy a skimmer, its more important on a reef tank.

and oh yeah, live rocks are the filter for reef tanks, so you should think about getting rocks. a pound per gallon is the rule of thumb. the rocks should go in now, so they "cycle" with the tank. or else you'll have to wait even longer. same with the sand

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971357#post11971357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
I would not get the emporer, its not needed for a reef tank (but if you want fish only it would work). i would use the money to buy a skimmer, its more important on a reef tank.

I figure the more bio-filtration the better. Once the live rock arrangement goes in, along with the live substrate, I'll have a decent bacteria population to seed the wheels on the emperor. I'm a huge proponent of over filtration, and weekly water changes. I've read about those that use a skimmer and the bacteria that exists in the live rock for filtration. I just think that having a HOB is good insurance.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971357#post11971357 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn

and oh yeah, live rocks are the filter for reef tanks, so you should think about getting rocks. a pound per gallon is the rule of thumb. the rocks should go in now, so they "cycle" with the tank. or else you'll have to wait even longer. same with the sand

I want to make sure that the water is equalized, and that the salinity is well established before putting anything in the tank. I figure after 24-48 hours, I'll know the tank configuration with the hardware I'm using is decent, and trouble-free.

Thanks for the advice though!

 

[Aquarist007]

I agree with everyone else--the emperor is just not necessary, live rock and substrate and a skimmer is all the fitration you need.
If you want to run the emperor then get rid of the bioballs and media and just run a bag of carbon in it. Down the line if the bioballs start causing nitrate problems it is more tedious to remove them since the overall water column has become dependant on them.Then the live rock bacteria has to place catch up when you remove them and this could cause an ammonia spike
Adding enough live rock now will cycle enought bacteria so your system is not dependant on the bioballs

its great you are going with the Korilias. but IMO you need more flow then the number 1 (400gph)
the flow rate in the tank should be between 20 and 40 times the tank vol in gph.
I have a 30 gal also and I found that I needed a #3, #1 korialia and I could probably use another #3

 

[taillonjohn]

the bio-wheel will end up dumping nitrates into your tank. I think, every person on this site will advise you to remove the bio-wheel, then what do you have? a $60-70 filter that is good for nothing except running carbon for. but, dont take my word for it, wait for others to chime in, or go ahead and get it.

a protein skimmer removes the excess nutrients from your tank, which will help with keeping nuisance algae problems at bay. it also removes other impurities from the water, such as toxins that corals may release, etc...

going through all the trouble to stabalise your water, then dumping in sand and rock, will cause your water to de-stabilise, and you will have to wait again for it to stabilise. do it once or twice, your tank, your choice

anyway, you seem like you think you know what your doing (feshwater and salt water tanks are EXTREMELY different, almost like opposites), so good luck to you

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971527#post11971527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
If you want to run the emperor then get rid of the bioballs and media and just run a bag of carbon in it. Down the line if the bioballs start causing nitrate problems it is more tedious to remove them since the overall water column has become dependant on them.Then the live rock bacteria has to place catch up when you remove them and this could cause an ammonia spike
Adding enough live rock now will cycle enought bacteria so your system is not dependant on the bioballs

The emperor, neither the 280 nor the 400, uses bioballs. It has a cartridge with floss (and carbon) per side, and a plastic media container on each side (which are both currently empty).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971527#post11971527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
its great you are going with the Korilias. but IMO you need more flow then the number 1 (400gph)
the flow rate in the tank should be between 20 and 40 times the tank vol in gph.
I have a 30 gal also and I found that I needed a #3, #1 korialia and I could probably use another #3

The way I figured it is that the Emperor flows 400gph, the Korialia flows 400gph, and if I added another Korialia 1, I'd have a total of 1200gph (roughly) which is about 40x the tank volume (a bit more actually since the rock will displace the water). If I removed the Emperor, I'd agree that I'd need a bit more flow.

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[taillonjohn]

dude, I think you got it (not). but, go for the emperor, you seem to really want it! it'll solve all problems

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971537#post11971537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
the bio-wheel will end up dumping nitrates into your tank. I think, every person on this site will advise you to remove the bio-wheel, then what do you have? a $60-70 filter that is good for nothing except running carbon for. but, dont take my word for it, wait for others to chime in, or go ahead and get it.

I apologize if my reply to your earlier comment was taken personally (it wasn't meant to). I understand biological breakdown, and am fully aware of the increase in nitrate as ammonia is broken down to nitrite, and then to nitrate. Since nitrate is less harmful (not as harmful at the same ppm as ammonia or nitrite), the more biofiltration to convert to nitrate, the better.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971537#post11971537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
a protein skimmer removes the excess nutrients from your tank, which will help with keeping nuisance algae problems at bay. it also removes other impurities from the water, such as toxins that corals may release, etc...

After reading about skimmers, I've understood that they're purpose is to remove organic substances before they're converted/used up by unpleasant/unwanted organisms like algae. However, I believe that with the proper filtration (even over filtration) with weekly water changes, will prevent a situation where the organic leftovers in a tank are abundant enough to cause a problem.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971537#post11971537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
going through all the trouble to stabalise your water, then dumping in sand and rock, will cause your water to de-stabilise, and you will have to wait again for it to stabilise. do it once or twice, your tank, your choice

I'd much rather have water that's at the right temperature, ph, and salinity for the live organisms that I'll be introducing with the rock and substrate. By making sure that the environment is as stress-free for the organisms that are in the rock and substrate, my understanding is that the tank will cycle more smoothly.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971537#post11971537 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
anyway, you seem like you think you know what your doing (feshwater and salt water tanks are EXTREMELY different, almost like opposites), so good luck to you

I'd had a fair amount of experience with freshwater, and I completely understand that saltwater is a more complicated beast. However, I also know that biofiltration is important regardless of fresh/saltwater aquariums. I'm sure I'll run into my fair share of challenges, and will be leveraging my LFS, books, articles, these forums, and the knowledge of those that have much more experience than I do to be successful.

Again, thanks for your comments, and perspective!

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971663#post11971663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
dude, I think you got it (not). but, go for the emperor, you seem to really want it! it'll solve all problems

Why the attitude? Also, did you not notice the two photos that I linked on the original post? The tank is already built...

 

[afish70]

dump the bio-wheel. you can still use it for water movement. you will soon realize that with the size of that filter, it is taking up prime real estate space for a HOB skimmer and a phosban reactor, which both you will want. i sure got rid of mine FAST.

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971727#post11971727 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by afish70
dump the bio-wheel. you can still use it for water movement. you will soon realize that with the size of that filter, it is taking up prime real estate space for a HOB skimmer and a phosban reactor, which both you will want. i sure got rid of mine FAST.

The Emperor has two containers for chemical filtration. If I do run into a phosphate problem, I can use Phosban in the containers without needing a separate unit.

Re: the skimmer
I still believe that with good filtration, and weekly water changes, you can provide the same benefit as with a skimmer. I just haven't seen enough positives of running a skimmer that tip the scales against a HOB filter, and water changes.

 

[taillonjohn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971719#post11971719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kriation
Why the attitude? Also, did you not notice the two photos that I linked on the original post? The tank is already built...

there is no attitude on my part. a tank, filled with water, is not a built tank.

You asked a question, so far 4 people have advised you against the emperor, but you think you know better, and "thank" us for our suggestions, but tell us your thinking is right. truth is, 3 times the tank turnover rate is nothing, a reef tank should have about 15x minimum. the truth is, the emporer does not contribute to tank turnover, it is useless in this regard, and useless in most regards where a reef tank is concerned. I reserch every day for the last 2 years, and only comment on this site, when I truly beleive I am 100% right, based on my own experience and research.

many years of a freshwater tank equals nothing for a reef tank, everything on a reef tank is opposite from a freshwater tank, I found that out myself, and see so many posts on here from people who have had freshwater tanks, and try to take the knowledge to marine tanke (like me), and it doens't work. the only thing thats the same, is that amonia becomes nitrite, and then becomes nitrate. a mistake with a reef tank costs MONEY$$$$$ big time. if you want corals, your nitrates should never go up past 20 ppm, but with a bio-wheel, you will never get your trates below 30ppm. nitrates is not so bad for fish, like you say, but its lethal to corals and inverts

you asked a question, people gave advise, and you say you know better, so I say you are the one with attitide. cheers

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971812#post11971812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
there is no attitude on my part. a tank, filled with water, is not a built tank.

A tank, filled with the proper saltwater mix, being filtered, with adequate lighting and heating, is effectively built, and ready for live organisms.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971812#post11971812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
You asked a question, so far 4 people have advised you against the emperor, but you think you know better, and "thank" us for our suggestions, but tell us your thinking is right. truth is, 3 times the tank turnover rate is nothing, a reef tank should have about 15x minimum. the truth is, the emporer does not contribute to tank turnover, it is useless in this regard, and useless in most regards where a reef tank is concerned. I reserch every day for the last 2 years, and only comment on this site, when I truly beleive I am 100% right, based on my own experience and research.

Actually, only three people responded (but who's counting). Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion. You're completely right in that the three who've posted to this thread have certainly more experience than I, and I understand that. However, no one has provided sufficient reasoning against using a HOB filter, like the Emperor. HOB filters are most certainly not useless (and I would love to hear your reasoning as to why they are based on your experience).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971812#post11971812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taillonjohn
many years of a freshwater tank equals nothing for a reef tank, everything on a reef tank is opposite from a freshwater tank, I found that out myself, and see so many posts on here from people who have had freshwater tanks, and try to take the knowledge to marine tanke (like me), and it doens't work. the only thing thats the same, is that amonia becomes nitrite, and then becomes nitrate. a mistake with a reef tank costs MONEY$$$$$ big time. if you want corals, your nitrates should never go up past 20 ppm, but with a bio-wheel, you will never get your trates below 30ppm. nitrates is not so bad for fish, like you say, but its lethal to corals and inverts

you asked a question, people gave advise, and you say you know better, so I say you are the one with attitide. cheers

Again, with proper water changes, you can most certainly build a system that can have less than 30ppm of nitrates.

I never was once sarcastic, nor condescending to you, or anyone that replied. However, I do believe that because I'm reading advice from a variety of different mediums, that I'm entitled to take them with a grain of salt and form my own opinions, with my own experience.

 

[lobstergrabber]

kriation,
Just another voice among many and you can take my advice or leave it. The above comments are mostly very true. Many before you have had problems with the bio-wheels. They are a no win situation with saltwater reef tanks any way you look at it. Also correct was the statement that you should not count the GPH through your HOB into your turnover for your tank. The reasoning is that the flow from the Hob will be spread out and then only straight down not providing the flow your corals will need for long term benefit. I would say for your set up the HOB will be fine but would run it a little differently than intended. One side would(if mine) be used for carbon/Phosban. Neither will be needed right away but shortly down the road. The second chamber could be set up as a mini fuge which would benefit your system as nutrient export(read up on refugiums if you have not already). Your lighting should be fine for all softies I would think. Have to get with some of the other T-5 guys about keeping sps with only the two bulbs though. I think your system would benefit from 2 koralia 3's but just just the addition of one with the #1 you already have would be much better.
If you want to wait a couple of days before you add the sand and rock, that is fine but really unneeded. You are going to cycle one way or the other and most of the critters on your rock are going to die(or will be dying already) anyway. The ones that will live through the cycle won't be affected by minor temp and or salinity variations.
As far as your LFS goes, most(and you may have a decent one) will sell you everything don't need to get your money. They will tell you things that make sense and will work but will end up costing you big money inn the long run and you will realize down the road you got took.(I learned this the hard way as have many others) As far as protein skimmers go I would say(as would most others) it is the single biggest part of your set up. Get a quality skimmer(I would suggest a remora) and it will save you many head aches. Water changes and chemical filtration will help but by themselves you will work yourself to death trying to maintain a healthy tank.

I think you are off to a decent start and have the right idea of going slow, just keep in mind most here have either learned the hard way or watched some one else do it and truly do want to see you succeed.

Rich

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11971938#post11971938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lobstergrabber
kriation,
Just another voice among many and you can take my advice or leave it. The above comments are mostly very true. Many before you have had problems with the bio-wheels. They are a no win situation with saltwater reef tanks any way you look at it. Also correct was the statement that you should not count the GPH through your HOB into your turnover for your tank. The reasoning is that the flow from the Hob will be spread out and then only straight down not providing the flow your corals will need for long term benefit. I would say for your set up the HOB will be fine but would run it a little differently than intended. One side would(if mine) be used for carbon/Phosban. Neither will be needed right away but shortly down the road. The second chamber could be set up as a mini fuge which would benefit your system as nutrient export(read up on refugiums if you have not already). Your lighting should be fine for all softies I would think. Have to get with some of the other T-5 guys about keeping sps with only the two bulbs though. I think your system would benefit from 2 koralia 3's but just just the addition of one with the #1 you already have would be much better.
If you want to wait a couple of days before you add the sand and rock, that is fine but really unneeded. You are going to cycle one way or the other and most of the critters on your rock are going to die(or will be dying already) anyway. The ones that will live through the cycle won't be affected by minor temp and or salinity variations.
As far as your LFS goes, most(and you may have a decent one) will sell you everything don't need to get your money. They will tell you things that make sense and will work but will end up costing you big money inn the long run and you will realize down the road you got took.(I learned this the hard way as have many others) As far as protein skimmers go I would say(as would most others) it is the single biggest part of your set up. Get a quality skimmer(I would suggest a remora) and it will save you many head aches. Water changes and chemical filtration will help but by themselves you will work yourself to death trying to maintain a healthy tank.

I think you are off to a decent start and have the right idea of going slow, just keep in mind most here have either learned the hard way or watched some one else do it and truly do want to see you succeed.

Rich

Thanks Rich.

I completely understand about an LFS pressuring anyone just starting out to buy every product under the sun. Again, coming from having freshwater tanks, and reading the literature that I had before jumping into the saltwater deep end, they all talk about proper filtration with at minimum an HOB. My experience with what I purchased had been great in the past, and I figured it couldn't hurt for the new tank.

The only reason I'm waiting a day or two before I buy the live rock is because I wanted to make sure that the water was properly heated (and consistent), and to make sure that the salt mixture was on the spot. I know the tank isn't in the process of cycling right now, but before I start investing in live organisms, I want to make sure that what I have was stable.

Talking with a couple of folks at the LFS today, they mentioned the difference in lighting (and nutrient) requirements between hard and soft corals. I'm definitely going to stick with soft corals for now, and if I end up needing more lighting, I can just pick up a second unit to match the one I have now.

I'm still not completely sold on the skimmer but once I get the environment up, and running, I'll definitely invest in one to help ease the maintenance of the tank.

Lastly, running half and half with the HOB, with one being a mini-refuge is a great idea, and I'll definitely look into it.

I really appreciate your thoughts, and suggestions...

-- Armen

 

[c0mp|ex]

the reason reef tanks rely on live rock and sand beds for bio filtration is because the live rock and sandbed provides an anaerobic environment for anaerobic bacteria. because of the lack of oxygen deep inside the rock and in deep sandbeds, the bacteria use nitrate as a source of oxygen which keeps nitrate levels down.


the problem with bio balls and bio wheels is that they provide a place for bio filtration that produces nitrates instead of reducing them. the live rock converts ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate then also to atmospheric nitrogen.

the problem with removing the bio wheels and bio balls after the water params are stable is that a large amount of bacteria live on the bio wheel, so removing them will cause a lack of bio filtration which then causes exess amount of ammonia and nitrite until the amount of bacteria in the live rock can catch up.

live rock + sand bed
ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate --> nitrogen

hob filter
ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate --> alot of water changes to remove nitrate

most reef tanks shoot for a level of 0ppm of nitrates, something that is near impossible with hang on back filters (unless there is a sufficient amount of live rock, in which case makes the hob filter useless anyways)

a fuge is another way to lower nitrates because macro algea uses nitrates and phosphates as a food source.

 

[Aquarist007]

Re refugiums with cheato---this is a great way to go to remove nitrates and phosphates but chaeto must be harvested regularitly to completely remove the nitrates and phosphates from the system.
Bioballs and biowheels both do not remove the nitrates from the system-- a protein skimmer does--this is what makes a far more effecient filtration method.

with regards to running carbon and phosban in the biowheel filter--again way less effecient then in a reactor. In the reactor the water is forced through the media rather then being able to take the easy way around the outside of it like a bag in a filter and a sump. This allows the entire media to engage in adsorption with the water column.

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11972397#post11972397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by c0mp|ex
the reason reef tanks rely on live rock and sand beds for bio filtration is because the live rock and sandbed provides an anaerobic environment for anaerobic bacteria. because of the lack of oxygen deep inside the rock and in deep sandbeds, the bacteria use nitrate as a source of oxygen which keeps nitrate levels down.


the problem with bio balls and bio wheels is that they provide a place for bio filtration that produces nitrates instead of reducing them. the live rock converts ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate then also to atmospheric nitrogen.

the problem with removing the bio wheels and bio balls after the water params are stable is that a large amount of bacteria live on the bio wheel, so removing them will cause a lack of bio filtration which then causes exess amount of ammonia and nitrite until the amount of bacteria in the live rock can catch up.

live rock + sand bed
ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate --> nitrogen

hob filter
ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate --> alot of water changes to remove nitrate

most reef tanks shoot for a level of 0ppm of nitrates, something that is near impossible with hang on back filters (unless there is a sufficient amount of live rock, in which case makes the hob filter useless anyways)

I completely agree with you. The advantage of having live rock and live substrate (from what I've gathered through research so far) is exactly that the anaerobic bacteria do breakdown nitrates into nitrogen, and that's why I've planned on having a significant amount of live rock, as well as a decent depth of substrate (as I mentioned in my first post).

My understanding of anaerobic bacteria is that if they're exposed to atmospheric levels of oxygen they die off (and they're named anaerobic for a reason). Colonies of anaerobic bacteria live in the sand because concentrations of oxygen are minimal at worst.

My goal is to provide adequate filtration (mechanical, chemical, and biological) with proper water changes to keep the system stable.

Also, from the research that I've done, it's not conclusive that nitrate negatively effects coral growth (or sustainability). However, what is evident is that with nitrate levels that are above the average (above 5-10ppm), Zooxanthella bacteria are more apt to grow, and ultimately compete with the same nutrients that coral require to survive.

Ultimately, the goal is to control nitrate levels in the tank (as everyone on this thread has mentioned), and make sure that the entire tank is properly filtered for the load that I'll eventually have.

 

[jakaufman]

my 2c about the biowheel/bioballs argument:

I set up my first tank as a FOWLR and put a canister filter on with bioballs. The nitrates in the tank have never been below 20ppm and are usually around 40ppm. Since it is my dad's tank and he is perfectly happy with stock lighting and just some fish, I haven't bothered to change it. The new tank I am setting up will not have mechanical filtration like that canister filter. I already have my sump/refug for chaeto and will be buying a remora before anything is even added to the tank.

If you do decide to get rid of bioballs (as I had started to do) you must do it in small numbers which causes the process to take months in order to allow the bacteria to stabalize. As many people have said, it is much easier to avoid that now and there is still agood chance you will have around 5-10ppm of nitrates anyways. Also, I don't think I have heard a good argument against having a skimmer. Get one and it will only help.. you likely wouldn't set up a tank without one ever again.

 

[kriation]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11974394#post11974394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jakaufman
Also, I don't think I have heard a good argument against having a skimmer. Get one and it will only help.. you likely wouldn't set up a tank without one ever again.

Will do. Any type of filtration will definitely help. Once I add coral, and eventually, fish, I'm sure I'll need all that I can get my hands on.

I know there have been a couple of threads on skimmers in the past in the forums I've perused through, but do you have any recommendations? How's the SeaClone fare?