A Poll - Who's Responsible ?????
- Thread starter MUCHO REEF
- Start date
redneckgearhead
Active member
Sir Patrick, I hate to inform you but common sense does not exist. What is common sense to one, is not so common to another.
Easily Distracted
New member
Would most pet stores that you know of sell a lionfish or a coral cat and say nothing to the purchaser if they were an unknown customer to them?
I think there are two factors that need to be considered. One is that zoas and paly have a very small intimidataion factor. They seem harmless enough and have commonly been treated as such in the past. Another factor is a lack of familiarity. If you were to go up to a typical person and ask if you should light a match when pumping gasoline, the answer would be something like "heck no. It's flamable." If you were to ask the typical person if you should wear eye protection when handling palythoas, the answer would probably be "what's a palythoa?"
What I would like to see is store employees that are educated enough to help educate hobbyists, a store with enough foresight and moral fiber to put a small sign near coral tanks saying hand and eye protection should be used when handling corals and hobbyists learning, proliferating and forwarding the hobby as a whole.
I feel the responsibility starts with the store owner and continues from there to everyone that may come in contact with their products (whether the clients are dumb or not). ; )
I think there are two factors that need to be considered. One is that zoas and paly have a very small intimidataion factor. They seem harmless enough and have commonly been treated as such in the past. Another factor is a lack of familiarity. If you were to go up to a typical person and ask if you should light a match when pumping gasoline, the answer would be something like "heck no. It's flamable." If you were to ask the typical person if you should wear eye protection when handling palythoas, the answer would probably be "what's a palythoa?"
What I would like to see is store employees that are educated enough to help educate hobbyists, a store with enough foresight and moral fiber to put a small sign near coral tanks saying hand and eye protection should be used when handling corals and hobbyists learning, proliferating and forwarding the hobby as a whole.
I feel the responsibility starts with the store owner and continues from there to everyone that may come in contact with their products (whether the clients are dumb or not). ; )
redneckgearhead
Active member
Yet people still smoke while pumping gas.
I had a guy repairing one and smoking last month.
I think Easily's avatar sums up this entire situation.
I think Easily's avatar sums up this entire situation.
So, I'm gathering from the poll results above and the comments posted herein, that roughly 2/3 don't think it's the sellers responsibility to notify buyers of the potential dangers. Conversely, 1/3 of you feel there should be some mentioning of these dangers.
Now let's flip the script and don’t shoot the messenger as I'm only trying to promote discussion. Let’s take it further and change the characters.
Let's say you and your spouse went on an impromptu getaway for the weekend. Your only child, Mary, who's 17 and has worked diligently since she was 15 and has saved every dime she's made. She's your only child and the best kid in the word. She listens to her parents, gets good grades, always home before her curfew, well, you get the picture. So while you're away, Mary decides to take the initiative to surprise you both and buy her first car by herself and really wanting to impress you both.
When you return from your trip, you are surprised to learn that the car salesman took her to the bank, figurative speaking of course. He sold her a painted-to-look-new, clunker. The hooptee is 10 years old, bad tires, leaking oil and pulling to the right on the highway. None of this was apparent to Mary as she simply wasn’t aware and had no knowledge of these dangerous defects. And to top it off, she was stuck with 10% interest for 4 years on a $9,000 car that was only worth $ 2,000 and gave the salesman every dime she had saved for her car. Sure, some things may seem farfetched, but play along with me just the same for the sake of this flip.
Question - If you are against informing polyp buyers of the potential dangers of these polyps, are you also ok with what the salesman did to your daughter? After all, it’s buyer beware and she should have done her research, correct?
Let's make it even more personal.
Let's say a LFS sold some polyps to your 16 year old son Steve, also a smart kid, and he became severely ill, taken to the hospital, lots of out of pocket expenses for you both and missed time from work. Yes, something like this can potentially happen. See link http://www.insideedition.com/news/6539/fish-tank-nightmare.aspx
So again, and I’m only asking……
1. Are you still ok with not informing polyp buyers of their danger if/when this has happened to your own child?
2. Is Mary and Steve just stupid and it’s all her/his fault and you’re not gonna say a word to the LFS or the salesman?
3. If one of them suffered irreparable harm or even died as a result of their lack of knowledge and research, do you still feel there is/was no responsibility to inform them of said dangers even if it took your childs life or limb?
Again, for the sake of discussion, I am only asking as I see both sides of the story . I want to hear from both sides now that it is personal.
Your thoughts?
And let’s all play nice.
Mucho Reef
PS. My opinion is this. If I get the sense that someone is blatantly new to the hobby and polyp keeping, I will unconditionally tell them or at least have them to Google the topic and read for themselves. If from brief dialogue with the buyer I can clearly see they are knowledgeable, I won’t bring it up.
Now let's flip the script and don’t shoot the messenger as I'm only trying to promote discussion. Let’s take it further and change the characters.
Let's say you and your spouse went on an impromptu getaway for the weekend. Your only child, Mary, who's 17 and has worked diligently since she was 15 and has saved every dime she's made. She's your only child and the best kid in the word. She listens to her parents, gets good grades, always home before her curfew, well, you get the picture. So while you're away, Mary decides to take the initiative to surprise you both and buy her first car by herself and really wanting to impress you both.
When you return from your trip, you are surprised to learn that the car salesman took her to the bank, figurative speaking of course. He sold her a painted-to-look-new, clunker. The hooptee is 10 years old, bad tires, leaking oil and pulling to the right on the highway. None of this was apparent to Mary as she simply wasn’t aware and had no knowledge of these dangerous defects. And to top it off, she was stuck with 10% interest for 4 years on a $9,000 car that was only worth $ 2,000 and gave the salesman every dime she had saved for her car. Sure, some things may seem farfetched, but play along with me just the same for the sake of this flip.
Question - If you are against informing polyp buyers of the potential dangers of these polyps, are you also ok with what the salesman did to your daughter? After all, it’s buyer beware and she should have done her research, correct?
Let's make it even more personal.
Let's say a LFS sold some polyps to your 16 year old son Steve, also a smart kid, and he became severely ill, taken to the hospital, lots of out of pocket expenses for you both and missed time from work. Yes, something like this can potentially happen. See link http://www.insideedition.com/news/6539/fish-tank-nightmare.aspx
So again, and I’m only asking……
1. Are you still ok with not informing polyp buyers of their danger if/when this has happened to your own child?
2. Is Mary and Steve just stupid and it’s all her/his fault and you’re not gonna say a word to the LFS or the salesman?
3. If one of them suffered irreparable harm or even died as a result of their lack of knowledge and research, do you still feel there is/was no responsibility to inform them of said dangers even if it took your childs life or limb?
Again, for the sake of discussion, I am only asking as I see both sides of the story . I want to hear from both sides now that it is personal.
Your thoughts?
And let’s all play nice.
Mucho Reef
PS. My opinion is this. If I get the sense that someone is blatantly new to the hobby and polyp keeping, I will unconditionally tell them or at least have them to Google the topic and read for themselves. If from brief dialogue with the buyer I can clearly see they are knowledgeable, I won’t bring it up.
Last edited:
MikeandNicole
New member
I am lucky when I got into corals the employee at my local LFS told me zoanthids have toxins in them. Also before I got into corals I was already on the internet reading away and also had a friend who got tagged by zoanthids while fragging them. I learned early but I know this is not the case for everyone so I understand the "warning label" part.
What complicates this though is I have my hands in my tank with no problems while my wife has gotten burned by zoas, mushrooms and GSP before. To some people anything can be toxic, to others not so much. I don't think they should come with a warning label and I think it should be up to a consumer to do research. Should a tang be labeled "Sharp"?
What complicates this though is I have my hands in my tank with no problems while my wife has gotten burned by zoas, mushrooms and GSP before. To some people anything can be toxic, to others not so much. I don't think they should come with a warning label and I think it should be up to a consumer to do research. Should a tang be labeled "Sharp"?
KeiferTheReefer
New member
So I am one of those people who walked into an LFS to check out fish for my FOWLR tank, and was "convinced" to dive into corals by the LFS owner. He also gave me a free frag of some Zoanthids to start me on my venture. I did not know anything of corals at the time, but decided to take him up on his "free" offer to get me started.
Well, it wasn't until after I placed the zoanthids in my tank that I took some time to research them. I had even been showing this frag off to my kids and wife prior to placing in the aquarium, and now realized that I had actually put them in danger by doing so! A simple warning or heads up by the LFS owner would have prevent this possibly dangerous situation!
I now research everything before I buy, and am super careful around my family and pets after working with anything aquarium related.
Honestly, I was a little ticked at the LFS for not letting me know, and have not returned since.
Can I now pose this question to the group: Why is it that most people who have responded to Mucho's question feel that warning labels are unneccesary on dangerous products? Warnings help keep people safe!!
Great discussion btw!
Well, it wasn't until after I placed the zoanthids in my tank that I took some time to research them. I had even been showing this frag off to my kids and wife prior to placing in the aquarium, and now realized that I had actually put them in danger by doing so! A simple warning or heads up by the LFS owner would have prevent this possibly dangerous situation!
I now research everything before I buy, and am super careful around my family and pets after working with anything aquarium related.
Honestly, I was a little ticked at the LFS for not letting me know, and have not returned since.
Can I now pose this question to the group: Why is it that most people who have responded to Mucho's question feel that warning labels are unneccesary on dangerous products? Warnings help keep people safe!!
Great discussion btw!
MikeandNicole
New member
You posted that while I was typing so I get to respond twice, lol.
First case:
I understand the point you are tying to make that sellers can be deceptive in their practices and sometimes even the best buyers can be taken advantage of. However, this is a case of clear deception, selling zoas and not telling people they are toxic could be out ignorance but not deception. The case here would be like a LFS selling you a blue ring octopus and calling it a clown fish. In this case you would be able to go after the guy under lemon laws which are out there to protect against deception. Now sticking to the example and throwing out lemon laws and all that, I would be ****ed at the car salesman but it is also a lesson in doing research and talking to other that have been through the process before jumping in.
Scenario 2: Again I would be upset with the LFS but in the end I would hope I raised my kid to do research and understand what he is buying.
(Disclaimer: I don't have kids so I know that may affect my responses)
First case:
I understand the point you are tying to make that sellers can be deceptive in their practices and sometimes even the best buyers can be taken advantage of. However, this is a case of clear deception, selling zoas and not telling people they are toxic could be out ignorance but not deception. The case here would be like a LFS selling you a blue ring octopus and calling it a clown fish. In this case you would be able to go after the guy under lemon laws which are out there to protect against deception. Now sticking to the example and throwing out lemon laws and all that, I would be ****ed at the car salesman but it is also a lesson in doing research and talking to other that have been through the process before jumping in.
Scenario 2: Again I would be upset with the LFS but in the end I would hope I raised my kid to do research and understand what he is buying.
(Disclaimer: I don't have kids so I know that may affect my responses)
I am at work so I can't give much of an answer, but there are 9 votes for informing and 27 for not informing. That is 1/4 (9/36) who think the seller should inform, and 3/4 (27/36) who do not.
I'll post more on the two scenarios later.
redneckgearhead
Active member
Warnings do not keep people safe IMO, they keep the lawsuits at bay. You are responsible for the decisions you make!
And if my daughter was taken by a car salesman, I hope I would consider these as one of life's lessons. We all have paid some "stupid tax" at some point in our lives. I have been cheated before and I had to pay that price. But you know what happened? I learned from it. As would the hypothetical daughter. To pass the blame onto the car salesman or the LFS owner (while some blame may be warranted) it is sending a bad message to our children. A message of "I don't have to take responsibility for my actions" What if that daughter had bought a perfectly good car, but was in an accident? Would you blame the car dealer then? For not warning her of the dangers?
IF my son was into saltwater aquariums I would like to think that I would be just as involved and know the details of keeping them. It is our responsibility as parents to be involved in the child's life and hobbies. To know the ins and outs of what ever they do and to teach them the dangers that come with almost every hobby! Would you blame the guy at the skateboard shop for not warning him of the dangers of skateboarding?
And at the end of the day, once those children reach a certain age all we can do is hope you taught them well and let them make their own decisions and let them learn from their mistakes. In my opinion, part of the reason we can sue and win over hot coffee is the lack of responsibility we place on the individual!
And if my daughter was taken by a car salesman, I hope I would consider these as one of life's lessons. We all have paid some "stupid tax" at some point in our lives. I have been cheated before and I had to pay that price. But you know what happened? I learned from it. As would the hypothetical daughter. To pass the blame onto the car salesman or the LFS owner (while some blame may be warranted) it is sending a bad message to our children. A message of "I don't have to take responsibility for my actions" What if that daughter had bought a perfectly good car, but was in an accident? Would you blame the car dealer then? For not warning her of the dangers?
IF my son was into saltwater aquariums I would like to think that I would be just as involved and know the details of keeping them. It is our responsibility as parents to be involved in the child's life and hobbies. To know the ins and outs of what ever they do and to teach them the dangers that come with almost every hobby! Would you blame the guy at the skateboard shop for not warning him of the dangers of skateboarding?
And at the end of the day, once those children reach a certain age all we can do is hope you taught them well and let them make their own decisions and let them learn from their mistakes. In my opinion, part of the reason we can sue and win over hot coffee is the lack of responsibility we place on the individual!
The car scenario I just posed happens everyday. Maybe not to the blatant extent of my story. In his mind he wasn't being deceptive and he wanted to make the sale based upon her knowledge and purchase power. She didn't know and he didn't tell her. In my book, it's the same thing. OK, let's say we changed the players and input any similar situation to your liking, I pose the same question. Is it still ok not to inform them of potential dangers? Keep in mind, now we are talking about your child here.
Kids are kids, with a Cerebral Cortex which involves processes like thinking, perceiving, processing, responsible decision making and understanding languages. It isn't fully developed until the early to mid 20's. Can you honestly say if your child did not ask the proper questions or obtain the proper knowledge via research, that you would not blow a gasket on the seller?
I am only asking :beer:
You're correct, an oversight on my part, speed typing LOL. I meant to say 3 to 1 ratio, but the question still remains.
Last edited:
redneckgearhead
Active member
Oh, I'm not saying me and the car salesman wouldn't have a "come to Jesus meeting" I'm just saying that she would pay for her mistake. And my daughter would never know that I spoke to the dealer.
LOL, "come to Jesus meeting"..like your answer :thumbsup:
I read you loud and clear. Just trying to keep the conversation going here is all.
Thanks
MikeandNicole
New member
My wife is an attorney, I am not, and have picked her brain on several topics over the years (have not discussed this one yet) so I picked up a few things. Attorneys talk about an assumption of risk the purchaser is taking on when they buy anything. Thousands upon thousand of people die each year from car accidents but cars don't put: Warning you will die if you drive this car on them because of assumed risk you undertake when driving a car. I think anytime you are handling wild animals there is an assumed risk you take on with that. Plenty of animals can carry diseases that can harm and kill humans yet they don't have that on a warning label on that animal.
On the flip side of that their is also pulic nuisance laws (why you have to have a fence around your pool) which protect people (especially kids) around dangerous things. I can't put up a flame thrower spinning blades combo on my front lawn with easy access to all and not accept any responsibility for them.
So going back to your example would I be really really upset with the seller taking advantage of my child, yes. However, it is a lesson everyone has to learn some point in their life that there are bad people out there looking to take advantage of you at every turn. You need to take the proper steps to protect yourself at all times. In this case as with anything you put in your tank you need to research it beforehand.
On the flip side of that their is also pulic nuisance laws (why you have to have a fence around your pool) which protect people (especially kids) around dangerous things. I can't put up a flame thrower spinning blades combo on my front lawn with easy access to all and not accept any responsibility for them.
So going back to your example would I be really really upset with the seller taking advantage of my child, yes. However, it is a lesson everyone has to learn some point in their life that there are bad people out there looking to take advantage of you at every turn. You need to take the proper steps to protect yourself at all times. In this case as with anything you put in your tank you need to research it beforehand.
Good stuff Mike, thanks for sharing that. :thumbsup:
RECAP
"So, my question is this. Is it the responsiblity of the LFS, on line store, vendor or anyone who sells polyps, to first and foremost inform the consumer of the explicit potential dangers in handling, keeping, propagating etc, these polyps?
Also, see post # 26
Please vote and then join the discussion and let us engage the topic and share why you voted for or against, thanks."
MUCHO REEF
"So, my question is this. Is it the responsiblity of the LFS, on line store, vendor or anyone who sells polyps, to first and foremost inform the consumer of the explicit potential dangers in handling, keeping, propagating etc, these polyps?
Also, see post # 26
Please vote and then join the discussion and let us engage the topic and share why you voted for or against, thanks."
MUCHO REEF
Last edited:
organism
code monkey
True, but in the legal books there's a lot of laws to prevent consumer fraud, especially with cars. Someone being conned is way different than someone not researching something harmful, apples and oranges
imo it's a different situation when you're talking about a minor vs an adult since kids are less likely to inform themselves. They're widely known to do stupid stuff all the time without researching anything, it's part of being a kid and how most of us end up with cool random scars. Either way, legally that's a case the LFS would for sure lose.
Good points, thanks for sharing that. I think a lot was gained from this discussion, just wanted to throw it all out there.
