Okay So my tank has Tang Turbellarian Disease and I have inverts and corals. I do not want to use copper so I am planning on using hypo salinity. I have a few questions. If I take out all the corals( not attached to rock yet) and inverts can I do a hypo treatment and then reintroduce them after? I have some coral attached to the rock, can I take that rock out or is it possible it has the worms on them? I have a yellow tang two clowns and a orchid dotty back. Already lost a bi color angel. To speed up the process should I QT all my fish inverts and corals and just drop the salinity really low? What do I keep running? what do I take out? after the treatment and readjustment of salinity will I be able to bring coral and invert back? Any tips?Please help!
A question about Hypo Salinity
- Thread starter daweedski
- Start date
vitz
New member
personally, i'd dip the fish, according to proper protocol (temp/ph match, watching the fish, etc etc) once and place them back, if that's the only issue you have.
black spot is usually fairly benign. i've yet to hear of a fish dying from it, or not 'recovering' from it. (although in a poorly maintained sytem, it certainly has the potential to overwhelm and kill a fish). it's a flatworm, and one dip should knock off all if not >90%, of the bugs from the fish. that's usually enough to allow the fish to get through and clear itself up
i've never placed much stock in that whole 'leave the tank fallow' idea to 'force' a parasite die off from starvation. i've yet to see any indication that it isn't an 'old wives tale'. ime-it's IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate any pathogen completely from a tank, unless you sterilize everything w/bleach, including the fish, coral, and rock
black spot is usually fairly benign. i've yet to hear of a fish dying from it, or not 'recovering' from it. (although in a poorly maintained sytem, it certainly has the potential to overwhelm and kill a fish). it's a flatworm, and one dip should knock off all if not >90%, of the bugs from the fish. that's usually enough to allow the fish to get through and clear itself up
i've never placed much stock in that whole 'leave the tank fallow' idea to 'force' a parasite die off from starvation. i've yet to see any indication that it isn't an 'old wives tale'. ime-it's IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate any pathogen completely from a tank, unless you sterilize everything w/bleach, including the fish, coral, and rock
Rea17
New member
Ok first of all, hyposalinity is ONLY effective against marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans).
Blach ich, or Tang Turbellarian Disease, is indeed a worm. You can treat it pretty easily in the display tank with PraziPro.
Based on what exactly? If you understand the life cycle of these parasites, then you should understand why a "fallow" will disrupt the life cycle and kill off any parasites not currently attached to a fish, while the fish are treated separately. This is old information, and quite proven, not an old wives tale...
Blach ich, or Tang Turbellarian Disease, is indeed a worm. You can treat it pretty easily in the display tank with PraziPro.
i've never placed much stock in that whole 'leave the tank fallow' idea to 'force' a parasite die off from starvation. i've yet to see any indication that it isn't an 'old wives tale'. ime-it's IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate any pathogen completely from a tank, unless you sterilize everything w/bleach, including the fish, coral, and rock
Based on what exactly? If you understand the life cycle of these parasites, then you should understand why a "fallow" will disrupt the life cycle and kill off any parasites not currently attached to a fish, while the fish are treated separately. This is old information, and quite proven, not an old wives tale...
vitz
New member
i've seen ich re-appear after 2-3 yrs in tanks that have had ALL the fish hypo'd correctly and 'layed fallow', it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely eliminate ich in any sw system, ime. and it's an old wives tale. the BEST you can do is severely reduce the pop. in the sytem to where no clinical infections will (probably) re-manifest.just because you don't get a re-occurence of an observable 'infection' doesn't meant you eradicated that critter from the system completely. not by a long shot.
y'all need to learn the difference between a 'clinical' and 'subclinical' infection.
vitz
New member
no, that is NOT what i'm saying. i'm saying that ich can reproduce/multiply via your fish as a subclinical (read: non observable or non visually manifesting) infection, and that no one can say anything is completely eliminated from a system simply because they don't observe an outbreak occuring. AND that me, and others, have seen previously 'fallowed' systems show clinical infections years after all fish were dipped and the tank 'fallowed'. properly.
the ONLY way anyone can conclusively state that ANYTHING is completely eliminated from a system is to go over the entire surface of every square millimeter of tank/rock/corals/fish skin/substrate w/a microscope and prove its non existence in that system. period. end of story.
anything else is anecdotal assumption
never did i say anything about indefinite encysting, please don't put words in my mouth
Rea17
New member
Uh huh.... "ALL fish correctly hypo'd and tank layed fallow" is what we are working with.
Fallow for what? 4 weeks, 6 weeks? First we are assuming the fallow period was long enough. 8 weeks is the absolute minimum, and ich has even been reported to reappear after that duration. Many experts recommend going 10-12 weeks.
Hypo is very touchy and certainly not the most reliable treatment method. We are also assuming you are as good at diagnosing as you are at deducing. Was the treatment long enough? Was the salinity absolutely correct for the entire duration of the "treatment?" Was the infection observed actually marine ich?
Next, we are assuming that the point of introduction was even a fish! Ich while in the tomont stage can hitchhike in on rock, a frag plug, undersides of corals, the shell of a snail, anything that is wet! To go about this process correctly, everything wet must be quarantined completely independently of the main system so that it can sit fallow before being introduced to the display tank.
We are really getting off topic here since the OP is dealing with black ich, not crypto.
Fallow for what? 4 weeks, 6 weeks? First we are assuming the fallow period was long enough. 8 weeks is the absolute minimum, and ich has even been reported to reappear after that duration. Many experts recommend going 10-12 weeks.
Hypo is very touchy and certainly not the most reliable treatment method. We are also assuming you are as good at diagnosing as you are at deducing. Was the treatment long enough? Was the salinity absolutely correct for the entire duration of the "treatment?" Was the infection observed actually marine ich?
Next, we are assuming that the point of introduction was even a fish! Ich while in the tomont stage can hitchhike in on rock, a frag plug, undersides of corals, the shell of a snail, anything that is wet! To go about this process correctly, everything wet must be quarantined completely independently of the main system so that it can sit fallow before being introduced to the display tank.
We are really getting off topic here since the OP is dealing with black ich, not crypto.
Deinonych
New member
no, that is NOT what i'm saying. i'm saying that ich can reproduce/multiply via your fish as a subclinical (read: non observable or non visually manifesting) infection, and that no one can say anything is completely eliminated from a system simply because they don't observe an outbreak occuring. AND that me, and others, have seen previously 'fallowed' systems show clinical infections years after all fish were dipped and the tank 'fallowed'. properly.
the ONLY way anyone can conclusively state that ANYTHING is completely eliminated from a system is to go over the entire surface of every square millimeter of tank/rock/corals/fish skin/substrate w/a microscope and prove its non existence in that system. period. end of story.
anything else is anecdotal assumption
never did i say anything about indefinite encysting, please don't put words in my mouth
Ah, I understand where you are coming from. Certainly crypt can be present in subclinical infestations. This is one of the primary reasons many people (myself included) proactively treat for the parasite. A fallow period is only effective if the fish are removed AND treated properly for the infection.
I didn't intend to put words in your mouth, so apologies.
vitz
New member
i've been doing this (sw and reef) for over 30 yrs, and the folks i'm talking about weren't noobs either. when i say *properly* i mean properly. i've got a fair amount of experience in disease prevention and control, both at the hobbyist and wholesaler/retailer level. it's pretty much my specialty
Okay so I just put two of my fish in a freshwater bath. The yellow tang and now I noticed that my orchid dottyback is scratching itself so I threw it in as well. I bought 4 fl. Oz. of prazipro at my lfs to try to control the "black ich" a little bit. I will follow up with results, thanks for the tips and let me know of any more I need to know!
Question about elimination of ich
Question about elimination of ich
Vitz,
In another thread you counterpoint "DrPat" with the following:
"rarely have i read a post where the poster is this sure of his being right, when he/she's so completely wrong.
please provide a link of any kind that establishes that an sg of 1.009 does NOT kill ich. none of your own material, please.
i'll wager i've treated/had more experience with ich and dips, hypo, etc., than you've had by orders of magnitude.
parasites can and will die from hyposalinity 'alone'. (for those that don't remain attached to a host for the entire life cycle). it's the only completely effective non medication option out there for ich, and it works 100% of the time. any instance where it doesn't is purely, completely, unequivocally, beyond any shadow of a doubt, user error
you should educate yourself more about the animals you claim to know about before throwing around the word 'veterinarian', imo. there's gobs of folks on this board alone who know gobs more about fish husbandry and parasites than any 100 veterinarians put together, heh.
true hypo for the proper amount of time kills cryptocaryon. end of story. there's really no room for debate here"
My question for vitz is what is the chance of elimination of ich from a display tank?
I am just trying to sort out much information on the subject and evaluate my own chances of eliminating my problem with crypto. Any and all advice is appreciated.
Question about elimination of ich
i've seen ich re-appear after 2-3 yrs in tanks that have had ALL the fish hypo'd correctly and 'layed fallow', it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely eliminate ich in any sw system, ime. and it's an old wives tale. the BEST you can do is severely reduce the pop. in the sytem to where no clinical infections will (probably) re-manifest.just because you don't get a re-occurence of an observable 'infection' doesn't meant you eradicated that critter from the system completely. not by a long shot.
y'all need to learn the difference between a 'clinical' and 'subclinical' infection.
Vitz,
In another thread you counterpoint "DrPat" with the following:
"rarely have i read a post where the poster is this sure of his being right, when he/she's so completely wrong.
please provide a link of any kind that establishes that an sg of 1.009 does NOT kill ich. none of your own material, please.
i'll wager i've treated/had more experience with ich and dips, hypo, etc., than you've had by orders of magnitude.
parasites can and will die from hyposalinity 'alone'. (for those that don't remain attached to a host for the entire life cycle). it's the only completely effective non medication option out there for ich, and it works 100% of the time. any instance where it doesn't is purely, completely, unequivocally, beyond any shadow of a doubt, user error
you should educate yourself more about the animals you claim to know about before throwing around the word 'veterinarian', imo. there's gobs of folks on this board alone who know gobs more about fish husbandry and parasites than any 100 veterinarians put together, heh.
true hypo for the proper amount of time kills cryptocaryon. end of story. there's really no room for debate here"
My question for vitz is what is the chance of elimination of ich from a display tank?
I am just trying to sort out much information on the subject and evaluate my own chances of eliminating my problem with crypto. Any and all advice is appreciated.
vitz
New member
did you read what you quoted ?
from me:
"it's impossible to completely eliminate ich in any sw system, ime."
then you ask: 'what is the chance of elimination of ich from a display tank' ?
help me out here, plz! are you at least reading the very things you're quoting before you start asking questions?
/facepalm
I am not trying to criticize or call you out on any comment.
I am just trying to learn from your postings. I appreciate your experience.
Yes, I read both of your quotes from different threads many times.
I was referring to your comment about hypo working 100% of the time and when it fails is unequivocally user error.
I really am not an idiot. I was asking for your clarification. I hope hypo works 100% of the time, but if crypto cannot be eliminated from any sw system, then I start to lose hope.
I am just trying to learn from your postings. I appreciate your experience.
Yes, I read both of your quotes from different threads many times.
I was referring to your comment about hypo working 100% of the time and when it fails is unequivocally user error.
I really am not an idiot. I was asking for your clarification. I hope hypo works 100% of the time, but if crypto cannot be eliminated from any sw system, then I start to lose hope.
Rea17
New member
If your objective is to learn, read the stickies at the top of this forum and the posts from MrTuskfish and Snorvich. It is actually quite easy to eliminate marine ich from a system and maintain that status, through PROPER treatment and quarantine.
Crimson
Member
I had ich once in the DT, removed the fish and let the tank fallow for 9 weeks. I also did what seachem suggested after the fish were treated and "cleared" I would pour some of the QT water (that has no copper left in the water column) into the DT and wait a few weeks more. The theory was that ich can "sense" fish scent and hatch.
This hobby has three basic parts: 1/3 luck, 1/3 theory, 1/3 proven fact, and some witchcraft peppered in. I think I will sig this lol.
This hobby has three basic parts: 1/3 luck, 1/3 theory, 1/3 proven fact, and some witchcraft peppered in. I think I will sig this lol.
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