A Question about Large Reef Tanks...

[Reef1589]

So, i started out in this hobby 3-4 years back.. with a 14g cube... ive progressed from 40 breeders, to 75g, to 65g shallow tank, and 150g tank..
and like every reefer, always dreams of going bigger... and i have that oppurtunity... on a 10ft x 4ft x 18''x Tank, 450 gallon acrylic tank, Shallow Just how i like it..

but here's my questions..
How many people setup a large tank like this, and then downgrade right after just from not being able to keep up with maintance... or something....
i know the initial start up cost will set me back a decent chunk of change, expecially since i plan on going LeD's, but whats cost run after the setup usually? ... right now i buy some new filter socks from time to time.. and my carbon every month and salt, i dont really dose, or run any reactor's, are they suggested for larger tanks? or can you get by just doing the usual weekly water changes? i would have 2 large holding tanks that would take care of this for me.. to make weekly water changes easy..

Any pointers and advice in large tank's would be appreciated!

 

[dave.m]

Not an expert by any means, but usually the dosing and so on is predicted by your tank's needs as determined by your weekly water testing, i.e. if you are chronically short of some element you might want to consider dosing. It really depends on the load you put on your tank. Some people do weekly water changes, some monthly, some none at all. It really has to do with what your individual tank needs.

I don't know anyone who has gone smaller after a larger tank. If you can afford it, learn how to manage it, and can maintain the same passion for the hobby, a larger tank seems the most fulfilling. But everyone is different and has their own needs.

Dave.M

 

[sfsuphysics]

Costs care vary depending upon what you do.

Costs that will definitely increase
salt/water - since water changes will only be that much larger, while water isn't that expensive you'll find you'll be going through buckets of salt in no time.
supplementation - (calcium, alkalinity, whatever you happen to do)
electricity - more likely than not will go up more than you expect. While you might go LEDs and think you're saving money over MH bulbs, now you won't have those MH bulbs heating your water which people tend to forget can be a useful thing. WIthout that your heaters will just work that much harder. Now ways you can get around this is to have the tank completely enclosed such that you trap a source of ambient air that doesn't differ from the tank temperature much, don't forget about venting the humidity to the outside though!

Costs that can be mitigated.
Live stock - Corals grow, as long as you can sit back and wait for existing corals to grow in, or frag your own stuff and put multiple colonies around you'll be good. Fish are usually an area that people tend to go gonzo on, and this really is an "it's on you" situation, the idea of a bunch of tangs appeals to people for some reason *shrug* and usually they gotta go with the more expensive fish too
Rock work - If you have a somewhat large tank now that has lots of rock this is your chance to open up your rock structure, you might not need as much as you used to, and I would go exclusively with the cheaper "dead" rock if you do need additional pieces.

 

[Reef1589]

Hrm, thats a good point actually, perhaps ill do MH ... just to keep up with heating issue's cause the basement does tend to stay a littler colder... and i guess it does kind of cancel out in savings if im just running my heaters nonstop..

and if we do decide to get this tank, we are gonna set it up right by the window in the basement and setup a sort of ventilation system with a fan to blow the humidity out ... atleast thats what we plan on doing, worse case scenario too, we have a industrial dehumidifyer... which should help alot too..

 

[petere1989]

by the window? idk bout that.

 

[Lavoisier]

Costs care vary depending upon what you do.

Costs that will definitely increase
...
electricity - more likely than not will go up more than you expect. While you might go LEDs and think you're saving money over MH bulbs, now you won't have those MH bulbs heating your water which people tend to forget can be a useful thing. WIthout that your heaters will just work that much harder. Now ways you can get around this is to have the tank completely enclosed such that you trap a source of ambient air that doesn't differ from the tank temperature much, don't forget about venting the humidity to the outside though!...

Good point. Its not hard to run the numbers though coming up with the number of hours per day the heaters will run under the LEDs might be difficult to come up with. It is an intriguing question: 250w MHs (3?4?) 12hrs/dayx365xkWh cost (0.09474 in KC)/1000 verses the additional hours in a day that the 3?? 300w heaters will run under the LEDs. Any thoughts on what this number might be?

 

[Dmorty217]

On the MH over LEDs, your heaters may run more yes but the start up that LEDs will cost will be far less then replacing 4 or 5 MH bulbs every 6 to 8 months not to mention your supplemental lighting. Most go with T5's which can add up when replacing once a year. If you buy a good quality heater or two you will have no problems, or you can spend hundreds replacing bulbs every year. As far as the window idea goes think about is the window facing sunrise or sunset? Is it a high quality window ie in the cold winter will there be a draft coming thru the window? It can be 20 degrees or colder by a window in the winter as opposed to a few ft away from one. You do not want sunlight coming from the window into the tank, for that will almost certainly cause more problems then good. Please keep us updated on the build with pics please

 

[Reef1589]

by the window? idk bout that.

correction.. near the window for ventilation... its not gonna be directly in front of the window and its not a huge full size windows its just a small basement window that will have a vent attached to it actually..

but why would you advise against this?

 

[one clownfish]

One way to save a few bucks is not to use heaters at all. I use to heat my 220 with 1500 watts running 24/7 in the winter here in Michigan and if I remember right, I couldn't get my tank over 75-76 degrees. It's been 1-1/2 years since I installed my hot water tank heater. The temp stays a rock solid 78 degrees(I lowered it from 80) and I haven't seen any increase in my gas bill. I know there's an increase but I don't see it on my bill. I do know my electric bill went down about $65/mth in the winter and about $25 in the summer. It was easy to do, $200 and about 4 hours to complete by myself. The nicest thing besides having a lower electric bill and a rock solid tank temp is. I now have instant hot water at five different faucets. I threw all of my heaters in the garbage a few months ago and I'll never use a heater again.

 

[Lavoisier]

Not sure I understand. What is a "hot water tank heater?" Sounds like you plumbed into some kind of gas heater?

 

[one clownfish]

Not sure I understand. What is a "hot water tank heater?" Sounds like you plumbed into some kind of gas heater?

I plumbed into my regular hot water tank. I put 40ft of pex tubing (heat exchanger coil) In the sump. For the controller I use my RKL hooked to a small 33watt brass circulation pump. 40 ft of pex is to much for my 300 gallon system, It heats it up to fast. I've been meaning to remove 20ft to increase the pump cycle time but I've been to lazy. There are two shut off valves and a check valve inline too and that's about it.

 

[Lavoisier]

Nice idea! Anything that removes heaters (with potential catastrophic failures) is a good thing. Other than needing to reduce the length of heat exchange pipe have you found any disadvantages?

 

[one clownfish]

Nice idea! Anything that removes heaters (with potential catastrophic failures) is a good thing. Other than needing to reduce the length of heat exchange pipe have you found any disadvantages?

Thanks but I can't take credit for it, I found out about it through a local forum. It is one of the best upgrades I've done to my tank, it's rock solid. For about five years I talked about fixing my kitchen sink cold water problem thru a convection loop. I had to let the hot water run for 1min17 seconds before it would get hot in the winter. I have a med. sized home but the kitchen sink is the last in line. I tapped under the sink to the hot water supply in the basement, put a ball valve, ran pex to a circulation pump, thru a check valve, 40' coil in the sump, then off to the bottom of the hot water tank where there is another ball valve. It works flawlessly, there is no down side. I knew going in to the project that the pilot light goes out about once every five years or so. So I set an alarm on the RKL to turn the circulation pump off if the DT tank dips 2.5 degrees below normal. It saved me about a year ago. It's great, I now have a stable DT temp, instant hot water at five facuets and a lower electricity bill.

 

[camaroboy8691]

clownfish .... thats a great idea even if you didnt think of it ... i never heard of it . ill have to use that idea on my next tank .

 

[CUZ]

i'd suggest leds for sure, on my 300g i ran 6-250w halides, which was great for heating my tank in the winter but come summer time my basement was muggy at times, plus the bulb/electricity cost was getting stupid..
other than that for me there was no turning back!!

 

[Hodge1995]

I would say easily 125 a month. I have never really kept track and not sure I want to.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Yeah don't get me wrong, MH bulb replacement costs can very easily make up for the cost difference with LEDs, especially if you use those expensive $80+ bulbs that you replace every 6-9 months (I buy cheap $20 bulbs that are "good enough" for my tastes), doubly so though if you actually need to buy reflectors, ballasts, etc over a tank. At that point I would almost advocate LEDs being a better choice. I was simply talking about perceived electrical savings that may not be there, this will differ for everyone especially if your tank is in your climate controlled house but some of us with large basement sumps or the tank in the basement will be surprising how much that electric bill doesn't budge.

As to the hot water heater use, I've seen a few before that definitely looked slick. However, and this is only if you care, you need to be very wary of codes when it comes to simply plumbing your hot water heater into your tank. I believe the requirements are similar to that if you use radiant floor heating using your water heater, so that's a good place to start for looking at codes... like I said if you care about those sorts of things.

Also sticking with the whole "code" thing. Be careful about blocking that window in your basement, if that's considered a path of egress (exit) you're not supposed to block them at all.

Lastly, don't jury rig some fan system to exhaust the air, spend the money get a bathroom vent (Panasonic makes some nice quiet ones) attach that to a humidistat or a thermostat (some warn against using humidistats) and use that to vent the air.

If your tank will have a fully enclosed cabinet and stand you might be ok as far as heat issues though, but if you want an open topped tank you could run into some problems.