ACjr. Dropping Logs

[mamagoose45]

Edit: This post was supposed to be by DMBillies...

I am very confused by the behavior of my ACjr. after looking at the tank graphs and logs. It seems to be dropping out over relatively long periods of time without logging data (on the scale of days).

While it is dropping these data I'm not really sure what the display is showing but I've never noticed it looking weird. I suspect it is "freezing" on the last value it logged...which wouldn't look weird as long as the values are within my normal ranges.

Then it seems to jump back to accurate readings randomly. On the graphs this jump just shows up as a linear interpolation between the last value and the value it reads when it picks back up.

I don't know if I might be doing something with the controller that would cause this (e.g., putting it in manual mode, turning stuff on or off, and then not exiting out into the main run window...but I think this would be a noticeable trend and I don't think I do this often enough to account for the drops), but it is puzzling and I was hoping someone might have some ideas.

 

[NeveSSL]

I dropped a few logs earlier, too, although I probably do it for different reasons than the AC Jr.

:eek1:

:lol:

Sorry.

Ok, so have you checked in the Neptune forum yet? I know thats probably obvious to ya, but I would think you could get some pretty quick responses in there if its a common problem and some help troubleshooting from Cliff at the minimum if its not.

Brandon

 

[DMBillies]

Yeah... I noticed that after I posted. It was my own little game to see who the first smarty pants was...

 

[NeveSSL]

 

[crumbletop]

could it be related to your computer sleeping? I think the AC Jr. keeps an on-board log for maybe 24 hours, so if your computer that it is hooked to takes a nap for a while, it may not fill in all the missing elements when it wakes up. I'm totally guessing, though. I don't a serial port on mine.

 

[DMBillies]

Jack- I don't have it permanently hooked to a computer (although that would be nice and we have a "spare" computer, I just don't know where we would put one. I don't think my solution would be in line with what Moriah would agree to either Need that and the full version of aquanotes (unless these programs Chuck is cooking up can save me the trouble ).

As far as the logs not storing for more than 24 hours, I didn't realize the limit was nearly that short. Maybe I'll have to look more closely at those logs and try to remember exactly when I've had the computer hooked up for downloading them. It may be possible that the reason I'm getting big gaps is that I'm only downloading 24hrs worth of info each time I hook it up (or whatever the memory window is). In which case, I wouldn't be noticing the display reading funny because it is actually working just fine (which sounds much nicer than the doomsday scenarios I was cooking up in my head).

 

[Mnemic]

Used Laptop.
you can find old laptops for cheap on ebay.

Any laptop with prob 500mhz and 512MB ram would be more then enough to run some simple log apps, and not cost very much.

For even cheaper, find a laptop with a cracked LCD, and just use an external monitor to set it up & then use a wireless network to store the logs to view on your other computer.

 

[ocd_mariner]

What does the full version of aquanotes offer that you are referring to brian?

 

[DMBillies]

You asked for it...

...almost all of the functionality a person would really want/need that doesn't come with the Lite version.

The problem is, I don't know what is really possible given the technology and how it works (and the limitations of an ACjr. compared to an ACIII or other controllers for that matter).

The number one thing I'm most interested in is having an e-mail sent to me if there is a situation in which an alarm would trip, which I thought the full aquanotes would allow me to do as long as I had the Jr. hardwired (of course, although I do consider myself at least semi-intelligent, I've found the user manual on this damn thing nearly impossible to interpret so I may even be wrong about that... and their website seems to indicate that e-mail alarms are not possible even though I thought I've heard of other people using them on Jr.'s). When on vaca, an e-mail could be my cue to call someone in to check things out and when I'm at school I could run home if I don't have something I need to be there for.

The other thing I'd like to have the full aquanotes for is to be able to monitor what equipment is turning on/off at what time and graphing that with temperature and pH. I'm 99% sure the aquanotes upgrade will allow that. I'd like to see how equipment running coincides with temperature and pH and be able to monitor the times that things are happening in the tank to try to tweak the set-up or in case something is happening during the day that I'm not aware of (e.g., my daylights are set to turn off if my temp gets high, so if my tank temp is sufficiently high enough my lights could be off almost all day and I wouldn't know right now because Aquanotes Lite doesn't allow logging of the status of the controller ports... at least not that I'm aware of).

There are loads of other things I'd like to be able to do that the Jr. hardware and Aquanotes won't support...again, at least not that I am aware of. For example, being able to check tank parameters remotely, at any time, from the internet.

I don't know what is software vs. hardware issues in terms of these kinds of functions and how you might be able to get around hardware limitations with creative software solutions to provide better functionality.

As someone totally ignorant of computer programming, this could be pure fiction, but I think it illustrates my point. If you can get a computer program to "read" the AC log as that data is being uploaded to the computer (which is basically what aquanotes will do at a defined sampling rate), you'd be able to have that program actively display that data as the current data (accurate as of the last sample, which most people would have set at less than 20 minutes...good enough for most uses). From there, it seems like it would be trivial to automatically upload that data to a server from the computer, where you would be able to access that information on the internet from anywhere. Also seems like the program would be able to generate an e-mail if the log showed something that was outside of your targets (as signaled by an alarm code from the AC itself or, if need be, values you define in the computer program). I am way out of my league here and this stuff might be a lot harder to program than I imagine, but logically it seems that if you can get a computer program to read a log of when the equipment is switching and what the temperature and pH is (which the full version of aquanotes does, meaning there's no reason another computer program couldn't), then you should be able to create a program that can provide almost any functionality as far as web interfacing that you would need regardless of the hardware...you would just have to accept that the data would only be accurate as of the last sampling and not 100% current (which is what aquanotes currently does anyway, and I can live with information that is outdated by 10 minutes... if something is changing that fast in my tank, it'll be too late by the time someone gets there anyway).

 

[DMBillies]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13231495#post13231495 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mnemic
Used Laptop.
you can find old laptops for cheap on ebay.

Any laptop with prob 500mhz and 512MB ram would be more then enough to run some simple log apps, and not cost very much.

For even cheaper, find a laptop with a cracked LCD, and just use an external monitor to set it up & then use a wireless network to store the logs to view on your other computer.

We have a tower (and even an old laptop). The problem is, I can't think of a place to permanently put it that it wouldn't constantly be in the way.

 

[ocd_mariner]

Brian -

What you describe is well within range of any custom software. Bottom line though, is that your jr. must be connected via serial cable to *something* to grab that data. So you are going to need a computer connected to it. However, I googled 'serial cable to ethernet' and came up with this.

Maybe a post in the neptune forum about this type of device is warranted, curt may have some input on if it would work correctly. It might be a good solution. If you can go from serial-ethernet, then you can make it to wireless if need be.

 

[Mnemic]

Serial->Ethernet is one way, prob the cheapest.

Next would be cheap laptop mounted to the back/side of the Stand with a wireless connection.

another solution (Abit expensive) would be a tiny ITX system of some sort. Check this out:
http://www.logicsupply.com/products/systemx07p1
get a USB Wireless Card & USB to Serial adaptor, and you now have a PC that is very small, fully functional dedicated to the fish tank, that could send emails (asuming the software is found)

or a more DIY solution: http://www.mini-itx.com/store/
prob find some older motherboards on clearance since Intel and Via released their new platforms this year.

 

[NeveSSL]

Ok, first off...

Just straight up, I would recommend investing in a better controller before investing in a lot of equipment to hook up your Jr. At least maybe an ACIII. Then you won't have to get the serial ground loop isolator thingy ($40) at the least. PLUS, its got an ethernet connection. You could put your computer anywhere.

Also, keep in mind that whatever computer you use doesn't have to have anything but power, the controller, and networking connected to it. You could set it up using existing monitor, mouse, and keyboard. Then just set it wherever you need it and remote into it. Its built into Windows and is very simple to use. I could help you set it up. And I'm sure several others could as well.

In short, your computer could be setup wherever it will fit best and still reach the controller.

Lastly, you need an Aquatronica.

Honestly, there is a free program that will do everything you want to do with an Aquatronica and the ethernet module. Check the program out here: http://reef.waldonell.com/home/aquatronica_data_logger.dot

They are a bit more expensive, but not much more than an ACIII if you're upgrading and it has more capabilities.

Just a thought.

Brandon

 

[ocd_mariner]

If brian already has a networked computer, then connecting the jr. to the network would allow you to run any software off of the computer you use now. From that link, if it works, it would only cost 10 bucks or so.

 

[DMBillies]

Edit: Brandon... already have the ground loop isolator. I also have an old tower that would work. I would have to buy a wireless card for it or move my networking stuff downstairs because it is not wireless but there is a phone jack down there for the DSL so that's not a problem. Or, I steal back my laptop from Moriah (and sleep on the couch for a couple of weeks )

I can make the AC to ethernet connection happen (whether it be with a computer or some other device), but it is essentially pointless to do without also having the full aquanotes or some other program to give me more advanced features. I'm not paying 80 just to be able to see when my lights turn on and off in a log...

If the full version of aquanotes could do everything I described above with an ACjr. (and I was sure of it), I would throw down the money, figure out a spot for the computer, and would be doing the bull dance by now.

However, I'm less than clear on what the full version of aquanotes will let me do with an ACjr., so dropping the $80 for the program and going through the trouble of connecting a computer into the set-up is not something I want to do if I'll be disappointed with the final outcome. I can put that 80 toward a DC8 to free me some outlets up...

Don't get me wrong, I understood most of the limitations of the Jr. when I bought it and hardware-wise I know I'm stuck with some of them (e.g., I know it can only control 12 outlets, which I NOW recognize is WAY less than I could potentially find use for). I was not/am not overly concerned with a lot of the advanced internet features either (they aren't essential, but would be nice). Everything I'm reading though seems to ignore the fact that Jr. users could connect to a computer with a serial cable and there is nothing in there stating whether or not a lot of the full aquanotes features will work with a Jr. that way.

And this is where I really need to talk with the company about it... I only made the off hand comment about Chuck's stuff because free is better than $80 and because even if aquanotes can do a lot of the stuff I mentioned above with a hardwired Jr., it does not necessarily do them well The interface feels like it is circa 1993 to me and there are about 300 things I would change about it that I feel like should have made their way into the program by now...especially if someone is asking me to plunk down $80 for it.



On the plus side, I think Jack nailed the log issue. The Jr. is limited to 340 samples per input. At a sample every 10 minutes (my setting), there are 144 samples in 24 hours. So, my ACjr. only logs 2.4 days worth of data... which practically necessitates me hooking it up to a computer permanently if I want any kind of long term idea about how my parameters are behaving. Even the ACIIIPro only stores about 1000 per input, which is only a weeks worth of data. I guess I never payed attention to this or assumed it meant 340 days or something...

 

[ocd_mariner]

Brian -

I should have logging finished in the next couple of weeks. Once the data is being migrated to the site, you can start working with that data, and then the sky is the limit.

Stay tuned and click the red house!

 

[Mnemic]

TBH, When I finally decide to go down the controller road, I will make sure the controller has an Ethernet Port. That's the most straight forward way to handle any device you need to communicate with on a desktop computer.

The one I have eyeballed is from Digital Aquatics. Looks to be one of the more promising devices, and sports what the others have. Their software is also Free to use with their hardware, which to me is a big deal. Waiting for Open source to catch up to this hobby next

And their hardware is cheaper then the other known brands.
http://www.digitalaquatics.com/

 

[Mnemic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13233182#post13233182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ocd_mariner

Stay tuned and click the red house!

OT:
Curious, are you writing the site in PHP or with Rails? I see your forums are a php variety, but the site looks & acts more like a Rails site.

 

[ocd_mariner]

Forums and blogs are both php, site is ruby. I didn't find any forum or blog network software that I was thrilled with on the rails side.

 

[DMBillies]

I'm not expecting to stay with the ACjr. forever. It was the cheapest way to get into a controller that could do my basic functions better and cleaner than the 30 timers I would need to run this thing. I got a good deal on it and they don't seem to lose their value as fast as a lot of other aquarium gear, so I figured I could get the majority of my money back out when I upgrade to the big boy toys.