Adding water volume to current set up help

isseym328

isseym328

Premium Member
Howdy,

Similar to my other thread on video cam, I'm prepping for my work trip and want to add more water volume with the summer heat coming. I was fortunate to pick up a free tank from a fellow reefer that I've fixed and ready to go. Last night I did a test on it and hit an issue where the current sump is overfilling due to the additional volume, and believe I'm not plumbing it correctly. This is what I had in mind:

300g DT with overflow box that goes to 80g sump and 150g tank
Return pump from sump to DT, and tank to sump

Pretty simple right? What am I doing wrong here?
 
assuming your sumps are on the same level, they must be tied together so the water level always stays the same. You can achieve this by drilling a hole towards the bottom of both and connecting via bulkheads and pipe. Or if it's glass and don't want to drill you can use a large "U" pipe to create a siphon between the two...BUT i would plumb in a small tube at the apex of the U tube attached to a small pump in either sump so it's always sucking away bubbles so as not to break the siphon. As another option, or if the sumps are on different levels you'll have to have sump 1 overflow into the sump 2. In this case only sump 2 will change level due to evaporation. Speaking of which, does it make more sense to increase the tank water volume or use the extra sump as an ATO reservoir?
1683220746224.png
1683221170867.png
 
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Solitude127 - Great question. The 150 is RR, but I'm not using the overflow because even though the totality of the water is above the sump, the bottom of the overflow sits midway sump and I don't want to drill or plumb up.

Discotu - Thank you for the flow diagram I love visuals. It looks like the culprit here is me trying to have overflows to both sumps from the DT, and have separate pumps with different flow rates going back to the DT. I tried different variations last night where one sump overflowed into the other and using different pumps based on flow rate which obviously did not work either.

My current set up looks more like the diagram on the right, like I said to Solitude the sumps are not leveled. It will be pretty easy for me to pipe/tube my current setup to match the diagram so I'm relieved will try this after work. As for the ATO question I used to have a setup for my old 150 where I had a 7 gallon reservoir tied to the sump. I'm most likely going to go the same route where the ATO will be in additional to the two sumps. However do you think there is any upside to making the 150g sump into an ATO? A big concern of mine is the summer heat coming up where in the past even when the tank was inside the house I had issues. Now that my full set up is in the garage due to the baby I worry even more about heat. I will have fans and possibley chiller but want to have that added comfort of tons more water. :)

Thanks for all the feedbacks this is super helpful!
 
JohnL said:
Congratulations. How about a photo?
Click to expand...
Agree, curious how you have the three pumps setup. One thing to check is to kill the power and make sure you don't have any issues with siphoning to one or both sumps. Regarding ATO, the reason I suggested using the larger tank was so you didn't need to worry about replenishing the ato reservoir. I top off about 2-3 gals per day. If you've got a 300g display + 80g and 150 sump in the garage you're gonna burn through a lot of water...unless you have lids. In which case make sure your chiller is up to the task. How long are you going to be gone? If it were me I'd use the 150 as the sump for the added volume then the 80 as the ato reservoir. Nice big water change before the trip and hope for the best. If it's any consolation I stress the same when I'm only gone for a weekend.
 
Ask and you shall receive. Excuse the mess it's still in progress. I started this project end of last year and have been tweaking it through the last few months. I built a raised platform/room (left) that connects to my now office in the house for more space and to move my last 150g outside to the garage after we had a baby.

300g DT acrylic to the left
80g sump below to the left
150g new sump to the right

You'll notice all the tubing in the middle of the tanks. That was how i was testing the water levels and figuring out how to connect the three tanks together. Eventually I'll prob replace most of the tubing with pipes so that I don't have to worry about anything slipping.

Yes I will be testing the siphoning this week by cutting power to each system and then all. Good call on the evaporation especially the summer. If you look at the bottom below the work table i have a 70g plastic container that will have water when I'm away which will pipe into the 150g.

I'll be gone for 4 days but my family will be around to check every so often. Crossing my fingers as well. Typically when I'm on vacation back then for a week or two I ALWAYS lose something...


IMG_0172.jpg
 
no offense, but that looks like a disaster waiting to happen. it looks like you're pumping water into the 150 with one pump, and using another to pump it out. it's really really hard to balance two pumps like that unless you're using water level sensors to cycle pumps on and off, or control the flow of newer DC pumps. And you'll need a check valve because water will siphon down from the 150 to the 80 if power goes out. Honestly, if you're only gone for 4 days i wouldn't even worry about it and take the 150 offline. If you must, the ONLY way i would do it is like this:
Aux pump from 80g sump feeds the 150 through the UV. (personally i would run the UV closed circuit directly from the display)
Maximize the volume of the 180, but also to get the water to the overflow box. I would take the standpipe out of the overflow box if there is one.
yes, you'll have to plumb the drain up a bit to get up and over the rim of the 80 but water pressure/gravity will do the work from there.

BTW, what's the 3rd tubing going to the 80?
1683583725004.png
 
I'm not going to lie I definitely thought about reverting back to the original state if I can't keep this stable for at least two weeks. I have another month to get this up and running so hopefully it'll be more stable by then.

Thanks for pointing out some of the concerns! Let me provide a better description of all the connections in the pic so we're aligned:

1. There are currently three pumps going into the 150 currently from the 80g sump, to balance out the huge pump that's going into the DT from the 150. Eventually I'm going to get this down to two pumps one that has the UV and one separate. To answer your question there is no pump going from the 150 to the 80. I followed your diagram so that the DT goes to 80g to 150g and back to DT.
2. The siphon is a major concern, and to mitigate that I have the two sumps at about halfway full in case. I don't know if this will solve the issue but still testing it.
3. You got me on raising the tank. I had thought about it, and before I started this project the 150g was supposed to sit directly on the table vs. been on platforms. But due to the fact that the tank has a leak before I picked it up I was a bit concerned there might be other leaks that I have to fix. The raised platform allows me to check and monitor all the corners. The original plan was to use the overflow of the 150.

My question now is you seem to say that I should use the overflow so that the 150 drains into the 80, but right now it's the other way around. What do you think is the best approach?
 
I just had another idea. What if I use the 70g plastic bin as a sump for the 150g, and then plumb the two sumps together? So pipes going between the 80g and the 70g would that work?
 
Oh boy, you have 3 pumps filling the 150 from the 80 then another pump in the 150 filling the DT? I can guarantee they are not balanced.

These are the potential issues i can see with this:
1)pumps in the 80g are pushing MORE water than the 150 is returning to the DT
-water level in the 150 will continue to rise
-water level in the 80 will go down
-ATO will kick on and fill the 80
-150 will eventually overflow on the the ground
-salinity will continue to drop until ATO reservoir runs dry.
-80 water will eventually drop until the pump runs dry
-tank crashes

2)pump in the 80 is pushing LESS water than the pump in the 150 is returning to the tank
-water volume in the 150 will continue to drop until it's at the intake of the pump
-water volume in the 80 will rise until it overflows on the ground. (water from the 150 has to go somewhere)
-skimmer will likely overflow as well
-pump in the 150 will blow bubbles into the DT since the pumps in the 80 can't keep up

Either scenario may not happen within four days but it will definitely become unbalanced over time. I suppose you can manage this on a daily basis but keep in mind you're putting a lot of faith in relying on the output of EVERY pump to keep it balanced. For example if even the smallest of the 3 pumps in the 80 is disabled by a snail or whatever, let's says it's only 300gph...that's enough to disrupt the balance and throw the whole thing off. Unplug one of the three pumps and see what happens.

Your best approach assuming you don't move any sumps around is what i suggested above. 80g is the main sump, it does everything. 150 is just a remote holding tank for water. you pump water into it from the 80 and it overflows back into the 80. One extra pump. No trying to balance water output with multiple pumps. If the 150 goes offline for whatever reason the 80 is still functional.

separately, you need to redo the stand for the 150. The bottom of the tank should be sitting flush against the top surface of the stand. remove the blocks. next, you should shorten the table so the legs are sitting directly under the left and right side of the tank. Finally, make sure to add a horizontal brace connecting the left leg to the right leg at least half way down.
 
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A few rules...

1 - Water will seek the lowest point it can find
2 - Siphons break and are unreliable
3 - Check valves fail and are unreliable
4 - Water is pumped up - gravity takes water down

It is perfectly fine to have a lower sump pump water to two ore more tanks at a higher level with one ore more pumps.
A - Those higher level tanks can drain back into the sump (this is what you appear to have setup)
B - Those higher tanks can drain from highest to lower, etc. to the sump.


Scenario A is straight forward. Each tank must have a suitable overflow back to the sump. Splitting a return pump will work, but can cause balance issues resulting in water level instability and noise. Safe? sure as long as each tank's overflow can handle the full volume of the return pump. Imagine what happens if you split the return to two tanks and one return branch gets clogged, or a valve turned, etc...

Scenario B is straight forward as well. Both tank's overflows need to be able to handle the entire flow of the return pump.

Hybrid of B is where the main display has one drain going to the main sump and another (or branch of the main drain) going to the secondary sump. This can be tough to balance, but people do it (think above sump, below tank refugium). In this case, I would MUCH prefer to pump water to the refugium from the sump with a dedicated small pump not dependent on the display drain or return.

What we NEVER want to do...

Allow a tank to drain into two different sumps that are not connected by gravity, be it one above the other or side by side with a common pipe communicating between the two. This is a 100% disaster waiting to happen.

Secondly, we never want to rely on a siphon to get water from one tank to another. In your setup you appear to pump water to the display from the main sump and to the intermediate sump from the main sump but are returning water from the intermediate sump to the main sump via siphon. This is a sure failure point.
 
Love the feedback guys! After 20+ years of reefing I'm still learning new things I guess now that I'm deviating from the typical single DT/sump model with all of my past tanks. This is good stuff my responses below for the two of you with questions!

Discotu - I have been testing the water level with all the pumps, and it has stabilized even though the ratio of pumps is not 1:1. The smallest pump going to the 150g did go offline overnight the last few days and the 80g was almost 100% full! Just think if the other two bigger pumps went offline....so I def agree that I want to use the overflow in the 150g so that the water is naturally going into the main 80g sump if you guys don't think plumbing 80g to the 70g bin below the 150g works as well.

Yup I was going back and forth on the blocks and that's just due to laziness. I actually moved the 150g myself from the car and let's just say I had a few minor injuries haha. Hence I didn't want to move it after putting it on the blocks in case of leaks. I'm pretty sure I will be removing the blocks and then cutting a hole in the table so the overflow can connect to 80g. The table is pretty stable you probably don't see it but there are actually 5 legs underneath and the legs are supported by additional 2x4 to keep them from moving/breaking. I've also jumped on it with the tank on there to test.

So my question is what if I add the 70g bin to the mix? Would that make it easier or harder?

BeanAnimal - Thanks for checking in with feedback! The hybrid B is what I started testing last week, where my overflow from the DT has three pipes two going into the 80g sump and one is for emergencies if the other two gets blocked. I tweaked it so that the current 2 pipes still go into the 80g sump, and the third pipe is opened up and goes to the 150g sump. However I was not able to balance it out most likely due to the sumps not being on the same level. Overall just trying to figure out the best setup that works w/o having to add/remove equipment from the current set up. Also currently there are no siphoning going on and the pic might not be clear with that.

Same question that I asked Discotu. What are your thoughts if I use the 70g bin in the picture below the 150g and plumb it to the 80g sump?
 
I would simply

Either

A) all display water goes to the 150 and then from the 150 to the 80. Return pumps in 80 back to display.

or

B)
-all display water goes to the 80 - Return pump in 80 back to display.
-second return pump in 80 goes to 150 and it drains back to the 80.

Forget the 3rd bin.. you are not gaining anything but a headache by adding it.
 
B it is. Last night I had some time to work on this and did a couple things:

Removed blocks under the 150g, drilled hole in table, and now the tank is sitting on the table directly

Figured out how to plumb the 150g overflow to the 80g sump and will be implementing that tonight

I will take a pic once it's complete. Finger crossed no leaks!
 
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