advice on QT treatment, stay the course or change it up?

[fairladyZ]

So i lost a tang, 2 clowns, and a mandarin when i decided to break my tank down and start TTM on 3 of the first fish, Something errupted in my tank and i lost the tang and clowns within 2 days of disturbing the tank.

I thought i had seen ich present on the tang for a little while, But with how fast he went down and the clowns went from being ok to dead in 3 days i'm not sure it was ich. I'm not sure at all if thats what it was. Starting to think it was possibly velvet or brook. Without knowing what it was and talking to some locals i decided to give Paraguard a try as i've heard local people have good luck with it on brook. So after getting my remaining fish into a QT for a week i started treatment. I dose the recommended dosage EVERYDAY at 8-830. Never earlier or later. Friday night will be exactly 3 weeks from when i started dosing the tank. For the first week the fish were in the tank i noticed some flashing and scraping from my wrasse and some of the dartfish. After 2 weeks i hadn't really noticed anything else, everyone eats like pigs and are active for the most part. But sunday morning i was sitting down watching them and the wrasse was having what look like nervous twitching. He would kinda curl a little and twitch, then go down and scratch the right side of his head/gill section on the little bit of sand i have in the tank. Then i noticed a dartfish do the exact same scratch a couple times. None of them show any symptoms of anything other than the scratching and the twitch from the wrasse. And every since i got the wrasse he will just randomly dash across the tank real fast once or twice then stop. He still does that aswell.

So what should i do? i know some people don't believe in paraguad and i'm not sure i do either but figured i would give it a shot. My plan was to run it for 1 month to hopefully get whatever life cycles i can gone. I was thinking of also starting the 3rd week to start a dose of prazi pro and then also another dose of prazi with the 4th week of paraguard. Then when that is over i was planning a paraguard dip before transfering to the main DT. But now i'm not so sure. I would have tried CP but i've read that wrasses seem to not do well at all with it. I do have copper but if it is indeed brook that would also be a waste of time from my research.

What say you?

 

[fairladyZ]

Bump any help?

 

[Newsmyrna80]

How long have you had the fish? Can't tell you what to do since we don't know what you are dealing with. Have you ever quarantined any livestock or did they go directly into the tank? Paraguard is not a known cure for anything. It may help knock back parasites, etc but it will not eradicate anything.
Wrasses do not do well with CP.
Until you are 100% sure of what you are dealing with you can't treat. Needlessly throwing medicine at a fish will only stress it out. And based on what you have reported (timeline) it could be velvet, but it could be brook. Can you post pics? Sorry can't be more help.

 

[fairladyZ]

half the fish were QT'd and half were not. The 3 dartfish were not and they went into the tank just over a year ago. The tang was qt'd for a week but i was having ammonia issues and he showed no signs of any issues so i cut QT short. The Mandarin was not qt'd was was in the tank over 1.5 yrs. The last fish into the tank was the radiant wrasse and he was not QT'd and was added back in april. The tang was showing the slight signs of what i thought was ich after i added some mushrooms that i got from the LFS back around november. it started with a couple spots that i thought were sand. they would come and go the next day and it was only 2 spots. So i thought it possibly could be sand. It progressively got worse over the months. It went from 1 or 2 "sand" particles to he was pretty much covered in the face and sides and it never came off him. He did loose some coloring in the face and went more of a pale and none vibrant, and it did start to almost look more like a "fuzz" but it was hard to see the spots on his side unless the lights went to a blue rather than the whites. I could never get any good pictures of the spots cause all i have is a camera phone but i did get some the day before he did of how he looked.. It looked like he had huge sores on his underside and side, and looked like the skin on his face was peeling off.







You can kind of see the white on the clownfish is faded and almost a black undertone to it. Sorry the pics suck but it's the best i could do.

Some people swear paraguard WILL eradicate parasites atleast in some point of their life cycle.. Some don't so i figured it was worth a shot.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Based on the images I'd say you are dealing with brook.
The fish that did die, how long ago was this and did they die of the same symptoms as the fish pictured?
The fact is this, in no scientific abstracts, studies or research on cryptocaryon, brooklynella or oodinium is Paraguard listed as a treatment. Paraguard does not disclose its' exact ingredients. It's a fairly known fact that if the words "proprietary blend" are listed on the bottle it won't cure anything.

 

[snorvich]

Some people swear paraguard WILL eradicate parasites atleast in some point of their life cycle.. Some don't so i figured it was worth a shot.

Yes, but you are the person having to cure your fish not the people who are swearing that Paraguard works. If there were a "silver bullet" we would all be using it and recommending it. You are getting good advice, hope you follow it.

It does look like Brook to me as well.

 

[fairladyZ]

the fish in the pictures are the ones that died. The remaining fish showabsolutely 0 symptoms of anything except for the occasional flashing that i mention in the original post. No color discoloration or mucus, no spots at all. No skin peeling look.

I didn't think paraguard was a silver bullet but you had to follow strict guidelines in treatment much like copper. And if this is indeed brook isn't paraguard a substitution for formalin?

Snorvich i apprecate and respect your advice but so far the only advice i've gotten is that i'm wasting my time with paraguard. I don't know what disease i have and don't know what course of action to take. I wanted to do a CP treatment but i fear the wrasse won't make it thru, plus no conformation that it cures brook. Formalin seems almost impossible to get now that most stores can't get it and walmart doesn't carry quik cure anymore but what if it was velvet?

I do have cupramine but if it is indeed brook then once again i'm wasting my time and stressing the fish. So i have no idea what to do. short of selling these fish and starting over or just putting these fish and ONLY these fish into a 210 gallon. but 5 little fish into a 210 gallon tank seems like i wasted alot of time and money.

 

[fairladyZ]

bump

 

[fairladyZ]

Bump again. So it's past 3 weeks of treatment with paraguard. Friday night will have been 4 weeks in paraguard. I know paraguard isn't a cure but without knowing exactly what the fish had its hard to say what to use. In the 3 weeks the fish have been in the qt they show 0 signs other than light flashing and scratching but I haven't seen any of that this week. If this is velvet brook or even ich wouldn't I see something by now? Could the fish carry it and never show any signs? I plan to start prazi tomorrow night and run that with paraguard all week then do a water change friday and see how everyone looks. Thoughts would greatly be appreciated

 

[fairladyZ]

Bump please

 

[fairladyZ]

Bump again. I'm hoping someone will respond and give me some feedback cause i'm at my witts end. If i don't get any feedback i'm just going to treat with prazi for 5 days, then put them into the DT.

They have now been in the QT tank for 5 weeks, 4 of which with paraguard daily dosing. I saw a dartfish scratch the other day but just once and maybe he just had a scratch. No color fading, no spots, breathing seems normal. I don't want to keep them in their much longer and it seems that if they DID have brook, ich, or velvet it would have popped up by now correct?

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Please do not take offense to this but you did receive advice as to the diagnosis and treatment. You chose to stay the course you had already taken. The only piece of advice I would offer is to remove the Paraguard soon. Prolonged exposure to any chemical/medicine is not good for any fish.
I really hope your fish will be healthy. I know how stressful it can be.

 

[fairladyZ]

diagnosis is snorvich and you said it looked like it may be brook. The only thing i know which 100% works on brook is formalin.

The problem is that there isn't a cure that will take care of ALL of them. I agree that prolonged exposure is not good. Hence why i don't want to finish paraguard, then go to copper, then go to formalin.

I do not know what disease if any these fish have. The darfish have NEVER shown symptoms other than scratching, neither has the lawnmower blenny, and i've had them for 1.5 yrs. The wrasse i've had for 9 months and other than his nervous twitch and racing across the tank sometimes he never showed anything. The only fish that EVER showed symptoms was the tang with spots that progressively got worse and looked like a dusting on him before he took the turn for the worse and looked like the above pictures. Same with the clowns.. They showed NO symptoms of anything at all until 2 days before their death, they got spots, next day loss of color. 3rd day dead.

There are many signs that pointed to ich initially, then to velvet, now to brook. I have no freaking idea and the fish i do have left show 0 signs of any of it. So are they carriers and not showing signs? could the disease for some reason not live on these fish and perished? I have no idea.

THEE only advice i've gotten is to stop paraguard and that it may be brook. I would think if it's brook then they would either be dead by now or show signs correct? I can't seem to get my hands of formalin which is why i went paraguard route as it was supposed to be a safer formalin.

i have no idea what to do next. i stayed the course with paraguard cause they only had a week left till they were thru a full month of it. Lastnight was their last dose of it. Now i don't know what to do. they seem healthy, they eat, they show no signs other than a scratch here and there.

is it possible these fish COULD live for 5+ weeks with brook or velvet or even ich and not show a single sign except a scratch, flash or twitch here or there?

 

[snorvich]

Paraguard adds a variable that is non-predictable. It could be acting in a fashion similar to copper at a non-therapeutic level which will mask ich, velvet, and brook (possibly uronema). That does not mean that the parasites are not present, only that, in effect, they are not able to progress along the phases of their life cycle. The one fish with visual presentation looked like brook (or uronema which is very similar and treated the same way).

Second hand diagnosis on this forum is fairly tricky. We take what is given (behavior, visual, time line, source, etc.) but this is experiential and sometimes information is incomplete or adds variables that make diagnosis less than certain.

Best case, everything is fine and the Paraguard worked. Worst case, after the paraguard is diluted or no longer effective, you are back to square one.

 

[fairladyZ]

That makes sense thank you. I know the mixed reviews on paraguard but with one of the ingredients being malachite green and readings that I've come across seem to point to malachite green at least being a possible medicine to kill the parasite in some form of its life I can only hope it did. I stopped treating with paraguard lastnight. How long do you think I should watch them to see if they show symptoms? This has been hard to diagnose even seeing the fish in person. I've tried to detail as much as I can about the fish and the time frame. But if this was indeed brook or velvet then the fish had been living with it for atleast 4months as I had not introduced anything wet to the tank since around that time. Is that possible?

 

[snorvich]

That makes sense thank you. I know the mixed reviews on paraguard but with one of the ingredients being malachite green and readings that I've come across seem to point to malachite green at least being a possible medicine to kill the parasite in some form of its life I can only hope it did. I stopped treating with paraguard lastnight. How long do you think I should watch them to see if they show symptoms? This has been hard to diagnose even seeing the fish in person. I've tried to detail as much as I can about the fish and the time frame. But if this was indeed brook or velvet then the fish had been living with it for atleast 4months as I had not introduced anything wet to the tank since around that time. Is that possible?

With copper at non-therapeutic dosage, parasites normally manifest themselves at slightly over 3 weeks, sooner if you know how to read behavior. There are simply too many variables at this point to guess the outcome.

To clarify a bit about how this thread went: knowing what works is simply a matter of reading the marine biology literature plus experience. Knowing what does not work is a whole different issue. Asking for endorsement of a treatment protocol that is not peer reviewed will always be difficult to achieve.

Using malachite green is known treatment for freshwater ich, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, but is not a literature proven treatment for saltwater ich, cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[fairladyZ]

Ok so figured i would post an update to see what you guys thought.

It's been 3 weeks and 1 day since i stopped dosing paraguard. I didn't dose anything else after that. I even stopped putting garlic in the food just to make sure nothing was preventing a disease from showing itself. I also refrained from dosing prazipro just incase.

The fish still look great, active and eating. No spots or discoloring of any sorts. I did dose prazi pro on thursday. So today is day 3 and still everyone has an appetite and looks good.

Thoughts on how much longer i should wait till they get a clean bill of health? I'm sure they are itching to get out of the 20 gallon and into the 210

 

[bobbravo2]

I'd give them a minimum of 4 weeks, 8 to be safe.

 

[fairladyZ]

well 8 weeks in QT, 4 of which with paraguard. Now 4 weeks without anything and 2 treatments of prazi and everyone is looking great. Very active and incredible appetites. No marks or spots or flashing/scratching. I'm getting anxious.

 

[fairladyZ]

Ok so to update again. Everything was seemingly fine but yesterday I noticed one dart fish not seem to move at all or be interested in eating. Today I fed aND they all showed a little bit of interest but didn't eat much and just went back to the bottom and layed in the corner but if they weren't laying in the corner they were constantly flashing and scratching against the bottom and sand. Wrasse and Benny seemed un phased. One dsrtfish was itching constant and seemed to be breathing get quickly. No spots or anything that I can see on the fish at all. Any ideas what I should do now?