Advise on sump design

[Entertainer]

Hi, i'm new to this hobby and intend to start with a 3' 40gal reef tank.

i had asked around the local fish stores around my area and all of them gave me different advises on setting up a new reef tank. so i decided to do some research of my own and hopefully gain more knowledge so that i can set up the system myself. after-all,this should make the whole process more rewarding.

first thing i looked into is the design of the sump. i'm thinking of a 13gal sump with the design as pictured below. derived to this design based on my reading here and there in the internet, and also asking around the local fish shops. look forward to some advise from the experts here:

- will the overall design works?
- are all the baffles and bubble trap properly designed?
- any of the section is redundant and can be done without?
- anything that i missed out?

would really appreciate if someone to help me out here.

thanks.

 

[whosurcaddie]

The baffle design looks great. I would leave out the bio filter substrate section this will leave you more room for your skimmer plus its not needed. If you can bump the size of the sump up i think you will appreciate the extra space.

 

[Pny]

You dont need that many bubble traps... you can remove some of the baffles and use the space for something more usefull.

 

[RocketEngineer]

whosurcaddie is on the right track. You don't need the bio-media section. Technically you don't need the filter socks either but that's more a personal choice than anything else.

Given that it is only a 13g sump, the refugium isn't large enough to be beneficial. I would combine the refugium and return sections into one volume.

One other tweek is that the first baffle after each section should be one the water goes over. That way any surface scum in that section gets pulled over the baffle and gets mixed back into the water. If you go with an under baffle, the scum just builds up over time, reducing gas exchange.

 

[formsix]

I think each of those sections is going to be wayyyy too small in a 13g tank to work out. The return section especially -- that's where your evaporation will occur (or where it will be visible first, to be more accurate) and so with this design you will need an auto-top off with hardly any room for error.

Also, most people only fill their sumps partway with water to leave space for any water draining from the DT if the power goes out. If your design is to scale, I'd be concerned that you won't have that extra space that you really, really, need.

For the actual design, I don't know much about the bio-filter substrate and don't use it, so I won't comment. I would nix the refugium though -- it just won't be big enough for much of anything. Other than that, the design looks good. And if you could bump it to a larger tank it would be great, and the fuge would work much better.

 

[Entertainer]

wow, thanks a lot guys for the quick replies. really help me to understand sump design much more in detail.

a few further questions here from the advises given:

- regarding the size of the sump:
the figure 13g is based on the assumption of making the sump around 20cm tall. if i increase the height to say 30cm, this will increase the sump volume to around 19g. question is, is this an efficient way of increasing the volume of the sump? horizontal space is what i'm limited to.

- regarding the size of the refugium and return sections:
what is the required size of the refugium section in order for it to be large enough for a 40g display tank? if i combine the refugium and return sections into one volume, what are the pros and cons?

- regarding first baffle after each section should be one the water goes over:
is BAFFLE A in the picture below what it means? in BAFFLE A, what is the function of the second separator? what's the differences between BAFFLE A and BAFFLE B in terms of functions and benefits?

- more questions on baffle:
i read somewhere saying that the distance between each separator has to be 1" apart and the distance between the bottom of the under-baffle and the bottom of the sump has to be 1" too. what is the reason for this? can we make do with smaller gap?

would appreciate if you guys can clarify these to me as well.

thanks.

 

[Mark_C]

Entertainer,

Just saw this post while trolling before work. I just set up a 40 breeder (3' long) tank myself. I did considerable research beforehand and hit up these forums quite a bit. In the end, being seriously restricted for space, I used a 10 gallon tank to create a 3 chamber sump and it is working tremendously well.
Its not much, but it does give me an additional 8 gallons of water, a place to run all my equipment, and a small fuge.

For filtering I removed all foam from equipment and don't use socks or media, as they would have to be cleaned/changed on a regular basis. Instead I use live rock, live sand (with a 3" bed in tank and a 5" bed in fuge), protein skimmer, and UV filter, along with a small clean up crew. Its all working fantastically so far.

I'll post a few pics, and if you're interested, when I get home tonight I can do a quick spec drawing.

Overall:

Chamber 1: pvc from overflow box, and an externally mounted protein skimmer (to maximize sump space), and 150w heater:

Chamber 2: a 5 gallon fuge area, small, but enough for a 5" sand bed (for anaerobic bacteria), a small amount of chaeto (not in atm), and can handle any small banished creatures. Note there is also a UV filter in there and a margarita snail to keep the walls clean(ish). Also note to the right side the standard over/under/over design baffles with 1" distances (I believe this is to allow adequate water flow through the sump without risking backup at the first chamber):

Chamber 3: return chamber with pump. Note the lines drawn on the glass to indicate my tank fill levels (low line is minimum water, mid line is max water with protein pump on, top line is max water with pump off):

Also note to reduce evaporation I fitted a good portion of the top of the sump with a custom cut piece of 1/4" glass (bout $8 from a local glass shop).

Finally (if the tank isn't drilled and you are using using an overflow box),when all power is off, the two return flows to the sump, which can cause flooding, come from the overflow box and the return line. The overflow box you can manually adjust - easy enough. To stop the return line from acting as a siphon, drill a few tiny hole in it just at the waterline. Arguably it may help agitate the surface of the tank a little for additional gas exchange, but more importantly it introduces air into the line in case of power out, breaking the siphon.

Parameters are tight, but with power out the sump fills to within 2" of the top before all flow stops, so no worries for flooding.

Hope some of this may have been of use. If you'd like the specs I used just let me know, as stated I can post them later and you can modify for your 15g (or go with the 10).

Mark

P.S. Here's a link with a load of noob start up questions I asked the RC crew (also containing info on sump design, you can see the changes in my sump since the start of this other thread)...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2453494

 

[fishgate]

For 13 gallons (Is that total volume or how much water you will have in it?) I would just do two compartments. A return section and everything else. For the baffle you really only need 2 pieces of glass, not three. Actually I would just buy one.

This one is good for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Eshopps-RS-75...8&qid=1416488297&sr=8-2&keywords=eshopps+sump

 

[RocketEngineer]

- regarding the size of the sump:
the figure 13g is based on the assumption of making the sump around 20cm tall. if i increase the height to say 30cm, this will increase the sump volume to around 19g. question is, is this an efficient way of increasing the volume of the sump? horizontal space is what i'm limited to.

The biggest consideration in baffle/sump height is normally the skimmer. Since most in-sump skimmers require a specific range of water heights to work in, this drives the depth of the first chamber. Some folks put the skimmer on a platform to increase the sump volume but then you run into fitting the skimmer into the stand. Its a balancing act. Figure out your skimmer first, then go from there.

- regarding the size of the refugium and return sections:
what is the required size of the refugium section in order for it to be large enough for a 40g display tank? if i combine the refugium and return sections into one volume, what are the pros and cons?

The better question is what do you want from the refugium? Pod production, macro growth for nutrient export? Oh, and mixing these different purposes just makes it one big mess as they aren't comparable in the small size most folks work with. I would say anything under 5g isn't going to do much and even a 5g refugium is marginal. Mine is 12.5g on a 125g display and is just one of three nutrient reduction methods used on my system.

The problem with combining the return and refugium is the pump sucking in algae. If the refugium just has LR, some of the rock might get exposed when evaporation occurs.

- regarding first baffle after each section should be one the water goes over:
is BAFFLE A in the picture below what it means? in BAFFLE A, what is the function of the second separator? what's the differences between BAFFLE A and BAFFLE B in terms of functions and benefits?

Yes, Baffle A is what I'm talking about. The function of the second baffle is to prevent the bubbles introduced by the water falling over the baffle from getting further into the sump. As the bubble rises against the second baffle it is allowed to travel back to the surface to pop.

Baffle B allows oils to collect on the surface of the upstream section. Baffle A allows any oils that would collect to be pulled over the fall. Then, the oil slick gets broken up by the water going over the first baffle and the broken up oil globs get pushed into the water to be transported around the system. Eventually they end up in the skimmer and get removed. The key is they aren't allowed to congregate and become an oil slick.

- more questions on baffle:
i read somewhere saying that the distance between each separator has to be 1" apart and the distance between the bottom of the under-baffle and the bottom of the sump has to be 1" too. what is the reason for this? can we make do with smaller gap?

That spacing allows for a downflow on one side of the gap and an upflow on the other and helps the bubbles described above get pulled back to the surface. If the gaps is too narrow, this doesn't work as well.

When it comes to the spacing, I cheat. I use a piece of wood to space my baffles. A 1X2 is actually 0.75" wide and that is the spacing I use. If I were to make a bigger sump I might use PVC pipe as the spacers but that build is a number of years into the future.

HTH,

 

[Entertainer]

great advises, guys. really tonnes of help here.

i had made some changes after studying the advises, and derived to a sump design (hope this is a better and more functional one) as pictured below.

the water volume for the sections are:

- skimmer & reactor: 5g (with footprint 10" x 12")
i had surveyed around the local suppliers on the dimension of skimmers and reactors, and i think this space should be enough, but just enough. is it advisable to allow for a bigger space?

- refugium: 5.5g (with footprint 12" x 12")
my main intention for the purpose of this section is denitrification and plankton production. Is it advisable to have it serving other purpose for a size like this?

 

[RocketEngineer]

- refugium: 5.5g (with footprint 12" x 12")
my main intention for the purpose of this section is denitrification and plankton production. Is it advisable to have it serving other purpose for a size like this?

If you totally filled it with fine sand, it might handle dentirification, but not much else. Plankton doesn't get produced in any meaningful quantities in our systems. You're trying to combine functions and falling into the same trap others have of trying to do too much with too little space.

How small is the return section? To me that is the bigger problem. I'm guessing you may be able to run the system for a day at most before the pump sucks air. Even with an ATO, that is a very small margin.

Oh, and do you really need a chiller? You don't list where you live so it's hard to judge.

 

[fishgate]

+1 - your sump is small enough as to not be too useful for anything but hiding equipment. I'd design based on that. 2 sections is all you should do. I still recommend to just buy a pre-made sump. The Eshopps sumps are really nice I had a great 2 compartment sump for a long time on my 40B.

 

[Entertainer]

If you totally filled it with fine sand, it might handle dentirification, but not much else. Plankton doesn't get produced in any meaningful quantities in our systems. You're trying to combine functions and falling into the same trap others have of trying to do too much with too little space.

How small is the return section? To me that is the bigger problem. I'm guessing you may be able to run the system for a day at most before the pump sucks air. Even with an ATO, that is a very small margin.

Oh, and do you really need a chiller? You don't list where you live so it's hard to judge.

+1 - your sump is small enough as to not be too useful for anything but hiding equipment. I'd design based on that. 2 sections is all you should do. I still recommend to just buy a pre-made sump. The Eshopps sumps are really nice I had a great 2 compartment sump for a long time on my 40B.

seems like a refugium is not going to do any good for my sump. should i ditch the refugium section and just make more spare for the equipment and the return section? how big do you reckon my return section to be? i used the reef central sump volume calculator and it says "Sump Volume need to handle tank overflow = 4.8 Gallons" based on 2" of water height above overflow. does this mean that my return section alone must be more than 4.8g?

i live in malaysia. temperature during the day time can reach over 30 celcius sometimes. a normal day time temperature is around 28-29 celcius indoor.

 

[Titans_Reef]

I have a 40g breeder with a 20g long sump. I only have 2 baffels in it lol. It works for me so the way I have mine setup is I have the first chamber as the drain with the skimmer inside of it. The water overflows in between the baffles which theres a 2"x2"X12" piece of foam for the water to fall on to and I have a place for media like carbon. With the first chamber being 6", that leaves me with 18" to play with and thats my return section. I have Chaeto growing in there which I have some egg crate inbetween the chaeto and the return pump so it doesnt get sucked into it. I also have my heater with the return pump. A lot of people over think a sump. I havent had any issues with the tank and I like the sump design since if I upgrade my skimmer to a larger one, I can place it inside the return section instead of the drain.

 

[Entertainer]

I have a 40g breeder with a 20g long sump. I only have 2 baffels in it lol. It works for me so the way I have mine setup is I have the first chamber as the drain with the skimmer inside of it. The water overflows in between the baffles which theres a 2"x2"X12" piece of foam for the water to fall on to and I have a place for media like carbon. With the first chamber being 6", that leaves me with 18" to play with and thats my return section. I have Chaeto growing in there which I have some egg crate inbetween the chaeto and the return pump so it doesnt get sucked into it. I also have my heater with the return pump. A lot of people over think a sump. I havent had any issues with the tank and I like the sump design since if I upgrade my skimmer to a larger one, I can place it inside the return section instead of the drain.

i'm picturing your sump to be a 2-chamber, with the 2"x2"X12" foam as a form of mechanical filter in between the baffle. one chamber for overflow and skimmer and the other chamber for return and your chaeto. is that correct?

 

[Titans_Reef]

Yeah, it works for me and im using a $5 clamp and CFL bulbs to grow the chaeto. I added egg crate to seperate the chaeto from the return pump because I noticed it going to my return pump so the egg crate is about 3" away from the pump so it wont get sucked up and it stays in 1 place