AEFW new info and photos

[Stoney Mahony]

It's doing good Redox I have been having some money problems lately so I had to get a second job so not as much time to post up here or spend with my tank.

 

[SERVO]

Things are going well with my treatment and QT. The biggest pain for me was physically sawing the corals off of the encrusted rocks. Some of the colonies are 8 inches across. (2.5 hour project alone) This has limited how I've treated. I treated the sick and "easy" corals first. Once I saw how gentle the fluke tabs were on the corals, I started to treat everything. Last PM, I did a second dip on the majority of the corals. I have to do a second dip on all of the corals in the QT tank, but I think that they may be all gone.

Now I am just paranoid about the clutches of eggs that I may have missed. So far so good, but in retrospect, given the fact that I didn't add anything for months, I fear that we may have the false sence of security that we have irradicated them. THis is my own theory. Here is MY antecdote.

1) I purchased a bunch of corals from a guy that was getting out of the hobby on 9/9/06. No problems.
2) I purchased a group of Acros from another member getting out of the hobby on 12/13/06
3) On 1/21/07 I finally purchased 3 large colonies from one of the SPS moderators/TOTM who moved to Mexico.

If you look at a timeline, the AEFW's likely came from #3. Out of all of the corals, none of those were majorly affected. The corals from #1 were first affected, while corals from #2 were also affected. He had a 6 line wrasse that looked like Jabba the Hut. Was the wrasse keeping the worms controlled? His corals looked and tank looked AWESOME!

I know another reefer that also got 4 large colonies from him and to date his tank is unaffected.

So I think that the worms take such a long time to get to a pandemic proportion.


Again, So far so good, but I think it will be another 8 months until my tank is at the point I want it at. Hopefully, in that period of time I don't discover that I have them again! I'm not adding anything so we'll see.

 

[tangdiver]

Thanks Servo for all the info....most just post it works, then no more info to see if it REALLY worked months later. SO PLEASE, help us and let us know in a few months if all is gone....unless you add another coral...then we will really never know...old or new AEFW.

thanks again just my two cents...but we really need this information...


Grant C. Anderson

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7588701#post7588701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gflat65
The water can turn a nice brown with TMPCC. The dose is 1 ml per 200ml, according to the bottle. If my conversion is correct, that is 1ml squirt per ~7 oz. of water. Many are overdosing, though.

I totally overdose period. About 5-6 squirts . No problems so far, but then again who knows- I have not inspected every colony under the scope.

 

[Travis]

I agree about the false sense of security. When I noticed the infestation in my tank, it had been close to a year since adding any acros. I also feel that the AEFW's are opportunistic... during a sressful even in the tank when the corals can become weakened, the FW's are able to really take off. It has now been over a year since I treated all my corals and have not seen any signs.... KNOCK ON WOOD!!! What I have seen is growth rates 3-4 times faster than before I treated everything.

 

[KingfishJohn]

I'd like to add a couple of things as we need a solution to these guys sooner than later.

First,

These are definitely coming in on wild colonies. I'm not sure if they are being collected with flatworms present or if they're in specific wholesalers systems but I've confirmed recently they are indeed coming in. The acro in question was a valida.

Second,

I know of people who have treated with levamisole and fluke tabs, and they came back. When we treated with fluke tabs, I couldn't ever get the fluke tabs to kill the worms, only stun them. To add to that, my good friend Clint (fishypets) treated his QT tank instead of a seperate container and nuked all his corals.

My question (and I know it's been dragged to death) is why aren't we still focusing on praziquantel? Has anyone tried actual, pure, praziquantel and not prazi-pro?

My experience with the prazi pro is that the amount required to get a death in any type of flatworm was ridiculous. I'm hoping that the low concentration of praziquantel in prazi-pro means that if we dose it in a pure form it will have a greater effect on the worms.

John

 

[tangdiver]

From working in public aquariums in the past, the pure praziquantel is about the same price as gold. It is very, very expensive. At least it was 3 years ago when I worked in Las Vegas and to my knowledge it still is. Nobody wants to invest that kind of $$ into an experiment. The way most hobbiests in this hobby are...do what ever it takes to save money. If that means steal information and call it there own, get information from a LFS and go online to save a few $$, not telling others what paracites you might still have so you can still sell frags. It is all about saving a couple of bucks. Nothing more. Until we have more professional people looking for a way to rid these things and want to share more of the information rather than the glory and $$, we will be unknowingly sharing these pesky critters.

Sorry if sounds bad, but sharing my thougths and knowledge,

Grant

 

[Sparkss]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9922192#post9922192 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
I totally overdose period. About 5-6 squirts . No problems so far, but then again who knows- I have not inspected every colony under the scope.

We definitley onverdose... we dip long and strong, as I like to say

We also cut off/remove any bases or plugs from any corals going into our tank. AEFWs don't like to lay eggs on healthy coral tissue, so if it isn't live tissue, then it gets cut off and discarded before the TMPCC dip. We lost 5% - 20% of each frag that way, and we rarely buy mini-colonies.. but if we do, for whatever reason, I take the dremel diamond wheel and cut them completely off of the base. The lisslt bit of tissue lose is nothing compared to losing your entire tank to these pests.

 

[KingfishJohn]

Grant,

Unfortunately I agree with you on all your points and Praziquantel is still as expensive as gold. The good news is that this confirms that this is still a viable treatment option that has not been tested. Now, I've got to go find some praziquantel.

John

 

[tangdiver]

Contact any larger public aquarium around you, they always have it on hand. One of the major treatments used in the public aquarium treatment protocols. They might sell it to you if you talk to their coral biologist. Have a list of how you are planning to do it. They like that stuff. Might be a team effort.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks,

Grant

 

[tangdiver]

Hey John, looked through my old notes on Praziquentel and I have a number for you...I will PM you. Please keep to yourself for the time being. Here is the dosage of pure prazi we used at Shark Reef at Mandalay Bay on fishes. Might give you a starting point. 2 ppm for 5 days, then wait a week, then 2ppm for another 5 days. Make sure all carbon is removed, all skimmers off, no ozone. Hope this helps...and keep us posted. Remeber share the knowledge, not sell the knowledge.

Grant

 

[SERVO]

Hey guys,

Sorry I haven't followed along too closely lately. I'm still hangin in there. Certainly the Fluke tabs didn't Osmoloticallly lyse the worms. The did immediately fall off in the solution of Fluke tabs, but that doesn't mean that they are only stunned. I'm not saying that they are definetly dead, but I know my corals are better off FWIW.

I totally agree about Praziquantal. (Read my orignal posts about that in the begining of this thread). There is a small concentation of the Fluke tabs that I used along with Flagyl.

I wasn't aware of the cost of Praziquantal. This is likely the solution, cure etc and would explain why no one has marketed it! If you can take a dilute concentration of Iodine and mark it up 500% and sell it you will do well, but it doesn't look like someone can repackage this. At least as hobbiests we can find the answers and post the solutions!

 

[KingfishJohn]

Grant,

I appreciate the information (might I add that with a prescription from a doctor I think I can get a hold of the stuff as well)! Funny you mention you used to work at the Mandalay Bay as I was just there about a month ago and was pleasently surprised by the predator tanks. Very nice job I must say!

If anyone has any suggestions on how to start testing this stuff I'd love to hear it. I think probably what I'll do is a test medicated bath to see if the worms actually are dying, then move on to an in tank treatment protocol.

I agree that less flatworms is good no matter what but the fluke tabs definitely aren't killing them permanantly and I think it will be a terrible ensuing battle to keep acros in a constant state of growth then decline.

John

 

[tangdiver]

Thanks for the complement. I worked my butt off the first years of opening that place. Baby sat sharks through the night when they came in. My wife was nice enough to bring coffee to keep me awake. But to keep thread on track, any vet that you can make a connection with should write the script...but will want to fill it also....$$$$$$$$$$$$. They like their money. But, did you get my PM on the numbers and any luck or dead ends?

Grant

 

[weatherson]

Has anyone tried PaziPro? Here's a blurb on this product...

Liquid PraziProâ"žÂ¢ is a ready-to-use, liquid concentrate that was developed to offer the hobbyist an effective way to control unwanted parasites in their pond, freshwater or marine aquarium. Extremely safe and super effective this revolutionary product offer you rapid control yet will not negatively impact your biological filtration. Send those unwanted pond visitors on their way, try Liquid PraziProâ"žÂ¢ today!
Key Benefits

Treats Flukes
Treats Tapeworm
Treats Flatworms
Treats Turbellarians
Highly Effective
Extremely Safe
Won't Negatively Impact Biological Filtration
Can Be Used As A Preventative
Excellent When Used With Ich-Xâ"žÂ¢
Non-toxic To Commonly Kept Aquarium Animals Or Plants.

Aquarium Solution® Sizes:
1 Oz (73251 - treats 120 gallons)
4 Oz (73254 - treats 480 gallons)
16 Oz (73256 - treats 1,920 gallons)

Pond Solutionâ"žÂ¢ Sizes:
16 Oz (73356 - treats 3,200 gallons)
32 Oz (73357 - treats 6,400 gallons)
Gallon (73358 - treats 25,600 gallons)

Directions For Use:
For treatment of praziquantel-susceptible disease conditions in pond, freshwater and marine aquariums.

As A Bath: Start treatment with as large a water change as practical or start with new water. Any water used should first be conditioned with ULTIMATE® or a combination of Liquid Buffered ClorAm-X® and Stress-Xâ"žÂ¢ to remove ammonia, chlorine and chloramines. Do not stop filtration, but remove activated carbon and stop foam-fractionation (protein skimming) and UV sterilization. Shake vigorously before use. Measure Aquarium Solutions® Liquid PraziPro® at the rate of one (1) teaspoon per 20 gallons of water to be treated. (one (1) fl. oz. per 120 gallons) Measure Pond Solutionsâ"žÂ¢ Liquid PraziPro® at the rate of one (1) teaspoon per 32 gallons of water to be treated. (one (1) fl. oz. per 200 gallons) This produces a concentration of 2.5 mg/L. Distribute the proper amount around the edge of the aquarium or pond or directly in to the filter box to achieve the best overall distribution. A single treatment lasting 5-7 days is normally sufficient. Repeat as necessary, but no more than once every 3 to 5 days. May be used as a preventative, at the standard dosage, when disease is likely. Do not use with other drugs or disease treatments. May cause temporary foaming.

Ingredients: oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilizing agent) and <5% praziquantel by weight.

Recommendations: Use Liquid PraziPro® any time unwanted parasites are noticed or introduction is probable.

Contraindications: There are no known contraindications to the use of Liquid PraziProâ"žÂ¢ except for use in marine (saltwater) systems where flatworms of the Polycladida order are being cultured.

Caution: In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water for at least 15 minutes. In case of skin contact, wash with soap and plenty of water. If swallowed, rinse mouth with water (if person is conscious). Obtain medical advice.

Because We Care: PraziProâ"žÂ¢ has been developed to offer assistance to aquarium or pond keepers who are encountering problems with unwanted worms or parasites and for ease of use by the user.

FOR AQUARIUM OR POND USE ONLY. NOT FOR HUMAN MEDICAL, VETERINARY OR FOOD FISH USE

And a Wikipedia link (note the brand names at the bottom)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel

Joseph.

 

[Sparkss]

Hey Joseph.. long time no chat

I thought I recalled reading some time ago that this was tried and dismissed.. but then again I beleive that we are up to 5 different AEFWs identified that last time I checked ? So maybe it was only tested on one type, and that one was tougher/immune.

I would definitley be curious to hear about anyone's expereinces with this product.

 

[KingfishJohn]

Unfortunately I have tried Prazipro (as have others) and the consensus is that it doesn't kill them. In really high concentrations I could stun the worms and get them (the ones I could see anyway) off the coral but they certainly didn't die.

That's the reason for the interest in pure praziquantel as the concentration in prazipro is very low.

John

 

[SERVO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7497551#post7497551 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SERVO
The big issue is what are these annulids most like-Trematodes, Cestodes or even Nematodes.

I think that biologically the AEFW's are most like the Platyhelminthese flatworms that comprise the Cestodes (tapeworms) and trematodes (flukes). Nematodes are classically roundworms causing intestinal and tissue disease in humans, and are likely not simular enough to the AEFW's. I think that we need to find a medication that will cover the disease of the flukes first. It would be nice to find a simular life cycle. With trematode infections there are both eggs and flukes in the body, so that treatment (if in high enough doses) may be the way to go. The only problem is that the egss are hosted by snails and the larvae infect humans.

Niclosamide or Praziquantel can treat Diphyllobothriasis.
In Diphyllobothriasis humans ingest larvae and pass the eggs. Prazipuantel will also treat Taenia saginata/solium, Clonorchiasis, paragonimiasis and the common (in my brain at least) Schistosomiasis. Schistosomiasis the eggs induce granulomas. Praziquantel is used for all Trematode infections.

IMO, I think that Praziquantel would likely be the best to kill these damn things. The question is, what dose and what will happen to everything else? i haven't read anything on anyone useing this but maybe it is just a concentration issue.


According to Katzung praziquantel enhances Calcium influx and induces muscular contractions. THe drug increases the cell membrane permeability resulting in paralysis of the worm musculature. Vaculoization and disintegration of the tegment occur and parasite death follows."the drugs safety and effectiveness as a single oral dose have also made it useful in mass treatments...." In humans no major adverse effects have been described. In experimental animals, no effects are seen until doses approx 100 times the therapeutic range are reached; signs of CNS toxicity are then seen; A wide variety of mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, embryotoxicity and teratogenicity studies have been negative.

Given the therapeutic effect at 0.3 micrograms/ml I would shoot for this dose and see what happens. If everything looks good, but the FW's are still there I personally would double it redosing no sooner than four hours and then go from there. Again, I don't know of anyone else trying to use this and I am unaware of what does that they tried. It looks good with humans. You could do 50X the recommended therapeutic dose for human infections. Shoot for 15 micrograms/ml first.

[/B]

I posted this in the past which is relevant to the above discussion. I wasn't aware of the price. I wonder what the cost is at a pharmacy. The problem with managed care and our trend towards socialized medicine is that no insurance company will pay a component of an expensive medicine for your tank (even if your co pay is only 20 bucks)!

 

[SERVO]

Well after more reading about treatment with fluke tabs, I decided to also treat with TMPCC. I have gone through so much trouble and work to get where I am, I didn't want to take any chances that I could have any recidivism of AEFW's. Still going strong. More later.

 

[tangdiver]

Let us know if you find any during the TMPCC treatment please...


thanks for doing some trail and ERROR, Travis and I have done quite a bit and lost $$$$$ with the levamsole.

thanks, we WILL get these things some day,

Grant